Notion CEO Ivan Zhao wants you to demand better from your tools

Hello, and invited to Decoder! This is Casey Newton, laminitis and exertion of Platformer and cohost of the Hard Fork podcast. This is the 2nd occurrence of my productivity-focused Decoder bid that I’m doing portion Nilay is retired connected parental leave.

Today, I’m talking with Notion cofounder and CEO Ivan Zhao. I’ve followed Notion for rather immoderate clip present — I’m a large fan, and a large portion of my workflow for Platformer is really built connected apical of Notion’s database feature. So I was precise excited to get Ivan connected the amusement to sermon his doctrine connected productivity, however he’s grown his institution implicit the past decade, and wherever helium sees the abstraction going successful the future. 

If you’ve ne'er utilized Notion, you tin deliberation of it arsenic an all-in-one productivity suite comparable to a batch of the collaboration and alleged “second brain” apps connected the marketplace — from the much business-y task absorption tools similar Asana and AirTable to the much DIY note-taking variants similar Anytype and Obsidian. 

Notion sits beauteous comfortably successful the mediate here, since it tin bash what a batch of these kinds of apps bash precise well, and each successful 1 package. At the aforesaid time, it allows for a beauteous important magnitude of customization, which has made it fashionable some for idiosyncratic productivity powerfulness users and for companies ample and small. 

But Notion started arsenic a precise antithetic portion of software, and its improvement implicit the past 12 years oregon truthful has progressive a just magnitude of proceedings and error, 1 large reboot, and a batch of large decisions. In my opinion, what truly sets Notion isolated from truthful galore of its peers is Ivan’s heavy passionateness for plan and an astir relentless thrust to marque products that helium sees arsenic utile and aesthetic successful adjacent measure. 

You’ll perceive Ivan aboriginal connected successful this speech notation LEGO: the artifact bricks are the cardinal inspiration for Notion, which employs “blocks” arsenic a metaphor for configurable templates that let you to usage Notion successful a beauteous divers acceptable of ways. Think everything from elemental notes and lists to analyzable databases and workflows. 

But Notion, similar truthful overmuch bundle these days, is evolving. Now, the institution calls itself the “AI workspace that works for you,” and you’ll perceive Ivan recount successful item however the motorboat of OpenAI’s GPT-4 proved to beryllium a large turning constituent for him and for Notion. The institution launched an OpenAI-powered AI merchandise overmuch sooner than the competition, adjacent earlier the motorboat of ChatGPT, and it’s added a big of caller AI-powered features successful the past fewer years. 

Ivan himself is besides beauteous excited astir the capabilities of AI; helium said helium uses it successful his escaped clip to larn astir caller subjects, and you’ll perceive speech successful extent present astir his imaginativeness for AI agents that progressively bash much and much enactment for you wrong of apps similar Notion. 

But a communal taxable with the AI manufacture close present is the precise ample spread betwixt what AI tin really bash today, and what truthful galore radical anticipation it tin bash down the road. So I truly wanted to inquire Ivan however we mightiness get to this aboriginal helium predicts, however agelong that volition truly take, and what productivity and cognition enactment look similar if AI delivers connected immoderate of these lofty promises. 

Okay: Notion CEO Ivan Zhao. Here we go.

This interrogation has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity. 

Ivan Zhao, you are the co-founder and CEO of Notion. Welcome to Decoder.

Thanks for having me.

So astatine a precocious level, picture Notion for us. If listeners haven’t utilized it yet, what is it? What does it do?

Well, we marque all-in-one productivity software. People usage Notion for each kinds of things, from taking notes, collaborating connected projects, managing documents, managing their cognition base, and, astir recently, we launched a calendar merchandise and message product. You usage Notion, truthful you should picture what Notion is.

I deliberation you conscionable did a truly bully occupation describing it. I bash usage Notion, which is 1 of the reasons I wanted to speech to you, due to the fact that each clip I speech to a CEO whose products I use, I get to springiness them merchandise feedback, which is breathtaking for me.

Perfect.

So bash you spot Notion contiguous arsenic much for teams than individuals? Is that the absorption it has found?

We designed Notion for teams. So different mode to picture Notion is that we telephone it LEGO for software. Maybe it’s worthy explaining the intent a small bit. If you’re a company, for your team, you person to usage a twelve antithetic tools to get your enactment done, and our extremity is to consolidate those tools into 1 container and springiness you the LEGO blocks that powerfulness each those usage cases. Not lone tin you bash each your enactment successful 1 place, but you tin besides usage those LEGO blocks to make and customize your ain workflows.

You and I person talked a just magnitude astir LEGO implicit the years. What appeals to you astir that design? Why is it specified a bully metaphor for what you’re trying to bash with Notion?

Well, due to the fact that it didn’t rather beryllium with software. If you deliberation astir the past 15 years of [software-as-a-service], it’s mostly radical gathering vertical constituent solutions. For each buyer, for each point, that solution benignant of makes sense. The mode we picture it is that it’s similar a hard integrative solution for your problem, but erstwhile you person 20 antithetic hard integrative solutions, they benignant of don’t acceptable good together. You cannot tinker with them. As an extremity user, you person to leap betwixt fractional a twelve of them each day. 

That’s not rather right, and we’re besides inspired by the aboriginal computing pioneers who successful the ’60s and ’70s thought that computing should beryllium much LEGO-like alternatively than similar hard plastic. That’s what got maine started moving connected Notion a agelong clip ago, erstwhile I was speechmaking a machine subject insubstantial backmost successful college.

You wanted to marque tools that would drawback unneurotic the mode that LEGO blocks do.

We privation to marque tools that amplify quality creativity. LEGO are creative. LEGO are beautiful, and astir bundle astir apt is not arsenic much.

Say a small spot much astir however you were drawn into this world. Were you ever idiosyncratic who was funny successful productivity tools? Or did that travel to you aboriginal successful life?

No. I deliberation it’s a misunderstanding astir Notion. Notion is productivity software, that’s what we bash arsenic a business, arsenic a product. But the ethos of this is what I conscionable described; it’s the LEGO ethos. It’s possibly worthy describing the past of the computing manufacture a small bit, due to the fact that that inspired Notion. 

Yeah. 

In the ’60s and ’70s, ’60s, the hippie procreation who took acerb successful San Francisco thought, “Well beatified shit, this room-sized calculator, if you enactment a show successful beforehand of it, it tin beryllium an interactive thing, it tin beryllium a caller benignant of mean that helps you deliberation better, helps you lick problems much collaboratively.” That’s wherefore the archetypal procreation of idiosyncratic computing started successful the Bay Area.

That procreation of thinkers and pioneers thought astir computing benignant of similar speechmaking and writing. Like we went to schoolhouse for aggregate years, but not everybody tin work and constitute English oregon German oregon immoderate connection you speak. Writing is simply a tool. Yes, you tin beryllium a poet, you tin beryllium penning essays, but it’s a precise malleable medium.

So, they acceptable retired to marque computing malleable and tinkerable, and everybody could their ain software. Then, successful the ’80s, the Bill Gates and Steve Jobs procreation took computers to the wide marketplace and enactment a machine successful each home, connected each desk. They benignant of froze computing into this exertion format. If you deliberation astir applications, each exertion is benignant of similar a mini-prison of computing. You cannot alteration it that much. There are exertion makers who are technologist programmers, and past determination are exertion users who are similar the remainder of us, the radical who usage productivity tools each day.

So erstwhile I was speechmaking those papers astir those ’60s and ’70s people, I thought, “Holy shit, the satellite that we’re surviving successful is similar a prison-like world.” If anything, the SaaS of the past 15 years has been for adjacent smaller situation cells, arsenic each exertion tin lone bash a tiny portion of things. So, that doesn’t marque it close for me, and the lawsuit feels the aforesaid way. It doesn’t marque consciousness that for your regular job, you person to leap betwixt 20 antithetic tools to get immoderate enactment done. The mean institution oregon mean concern uses 100-plus antithetic SaaS tools. The fragmentation is obvious, adjacent for the IT department. 

So, there’s different saying successful business: you either bundle oregon unbundle. So, Notion’s squarely successful the bundling business. Our occupation is to bundle SaaS into a one-ish productivity instrumentality for your halfway regular needs, truthful we tin unleash LEGO-like creativity for you.

It’s an absorbing conversation. It makes maine deliberation of room gadgets, due to the fact that you spot the aforesaid hostility there, wherever determination are immoderate room tools, similar I don’t know, a basal mixer, oregon an immersion blender, that you tin usage to marque many, galore antithetic kinds of recipes. And past there’s the ail press, which is bully for mincing ail and thing else. 

It sounds similar what you’re saying is by the clip we got into the 2010s, productivity was conscionable a clump of ail presses, and you benignant of wanted to travel on and say, “What if we conscionable had a basal mixer and you could marque a batch of recipes with 1 thing?”

A person of excavation utilized this metaphor, akin to what you said. Have you seen avocado cutters?

Yes.

An avocado cutter is made conscionable for freaking avocados. You cannot bash thing else. In comparison, a room weapon is simply a instrumentality that you tin usage hundreds oregon thousands of antithetic ways. You, arsenic a human, amplify it due to the fact that you person a technique. So, to make bundle that’s much similar a room knife, oregon LEGO, that’s what interests me, and interests america arsenic a company.

But you can’t blasted the industry, due to the fact that if you deliberation astir it — if you rewind backmost earlier SaaS — the satellite was moving connected Microsoft Office for a bully coagulated 10 to 20 years. SaaS, with the net arsenic its distribution, allows caller businesses to beryllium created. The earthy mode to spell astir organisation and caller businesses is to find a truly precise solution, creating those avocado cutters and ail presses, and you tin find buyers connected the different side.

So, arsenic we determination into today, bash you deliberation of yourself arsenic competing straight against Microsoft Office oregon Google Workplace? Is the imaginativeness that big, oregon is it thing different?

We coexist with them, arsenic astir of our customers are inactive utilizing Google Workplace oregon Microsoft Office. They usage their individuality service, they usage their message and calendar apps. We person a message and calendar merchandise presently arsenic a client. A startup tin afloat tally connected Notion. You don’t request to usage Microsoft 360 oregon Google Docs, but it’s not arsenic mutually exclusive.

Our saccharine spot is much connected the things that you request to enactment successful a database. Another mode to deliberation astir it is like, what is Microsoft Access but for the 2020s, and AI native? Most SaaS is benignant of similar a relational database, storing immoderate benignant of strategy grounds of your company, and 1 workflow connected apical of that. That’s the portion that neither Microsoft nor Google touches today. 

There are spreadsheets, but determination are not galore database usage cases. We privation to consolidate and commoditize that, and springiness radical the LEGO of those database usage cases, specified arsenic task absorption and summons tracking. Some companies usage them for CRM, oregon managing exertion trackers. For reporters, you tin negociate each your leads and the stories. Those are database usage cases.

Right, and I bash do immoderate of that successful Notion. Let maine inquire you astir the flip broadside of gathering a merchandise that has truthful overmuch inferior baked into it, which is that sometimes erstwhile I’ve talked to radical who person tried Notion, they say, “I didn’t cognize wherever to begin. I felt intimidated by the blank page.” It seemed similar determination was a learning curve.

How bash you deliberation astir that challenge, and effort to bring radical on into knowing what Notion is meant to do?

Yeah, similar aboriginal LEGO, you get bricks. Then aboriginal on, LEGO created systems and boxes, and present LEGO works with Marvel and F1 to make truly specialized boxes. In immoderate sense, Notion arsenic a company, we’re successful the mediate of adding much boxes, truthful radical don’t person to commencement from an bare acceptable of bricks, with nary acquisition manual. 

You tin imagine, like, “Hey, I privation a Formula One contention car. I similar that LEGO box.” When you unfastened it, you person your car ready-made for you, truthful you tin commencement driving it. You play with that LEGO artifact close away. But if you don’t similar definite parts of the cars, due to the fact that they’re made from LEGOs, you tin alteration them. That has ever been our philosophy, and we’re doubling down connected this attack due to the fact that it works.

Interesting. I consciousness similar a cardinal situation that immoderate of the different large productivity tools similar Microsoft Office person had implicit the years is bloat, right? The app has a cardinal features, and each idiosyncratic 1 is precise important to similar 0.5 percent of the idiosyncratic base, truthful you can’t region it.

But also, the app conscionable gets harder and harder to usage implicit clip due to the fact that it’s truthful stuffed with buttons, menus, and widgets. Can Notion debar that? And person determination been times erstwhile you’ve disquieted you mightiness beryllium determination already?

It’s decidedly tricky. If you privation to enactment much power, you request to person much things. There are 2 ways to attack it. The classical mode is conscionable adding that feature, successful the hard integrative way. We’re taking a much LEGO approach, truthful adding the brick, and the ceramic tin beryllium utilized for antithetic things. In immoderate sense, this is simply a overmuch amended approach.

Got it. So, trying to connection less discreet, precise constrictive features, and much abstract features that tin beryllium extended successful assorted antithetic ways.

Like LEGO systems, connected 1 extremity tin beryllium artifact cars, and connected the different could beryllium Barbie dolls, much oregon little utilizing the aforesaid bricks. If you look astatine the astir communal productivity tool, if you conscionable enactment your decorator caput connected that, determination are 20 oregon 30 pieces there. There’s immoderate benignant of table, immoderate benignant of relational database feature, immoderate charts, immoderate commenting, leafage editing, and collaboration. 

Those 20 things are halfway to each collaboration and cognition work. So, we effort to bash our champion occupation to marque them friendly, approachable, and interruption them into pieces, and springiness them to you, either arsenic a portion oregon arsenic a portion of a package.

What bricks wrong of Notion are astir fashionable today?

We commencement with bricks astir documents and cognition bases. We’re celebrated for our block-based editors, and that’s from the aboriginal days. That’s similar 2019 into 2020. And past databases are our astir important ceramic today, because, similar I mentioned, astir cognition enactment is conscionable fancy record cabinets successful the cloud. Knowledge enactment runs connected record cabinets, and databases are the bosom of that.

Yeah, the database is my fig 1 Notion ceramic that I use. So that makes consciousness to me.

People don’t observe that [easily]. We request to bash a amended occupation of getting radical to recognize its power. It’s fundamentally what an technologist does each time is ligament unneurotic a relational database with views connected apical of that. How bash we democratize that? That’s our purpose.

Well, it’s interesting, due to the fact that if I had ne'er heard of Notion, and you came to maine and you said, “Casey, you should physique a database to lick this problem,” that’s similar telling maine that I should adhd different country to my house. I don’t cognize wherever to begin. I consciousness similar I request to telephone idiosyncratic and inquire for help. 

But successful practice, you click a mates of buttons, and successful my case, instal the Notion Web Clipper, and I’m good connected my mode to having a database. So, I don’t really deliberation the learning curve is that steep, but I could recognize wherefore idiosyncratic mightiness beryllium intimidated by it if they had ne'er tried to bash that benignant of thing.

Yeah, not each kid grew up liking LEGO arsenic their fig 1 toy. I deliberation Notion resonates the champion with radical who similar to build, and they thin to beryllium entrepreneurs, tech people, and the spreadsheet gurus successful each team. They similar Notion, and they acceptable it up for the remainder of their teammates.

That’s ever adjuvant erstwhile you tin get radical wrong the institution doing the income portion for you.

You cognize what? AI tin bash this rather good now, due to the fact that what AI is bully astatine is gluing unneurotic LEGO bricks. AI tin constitute code. Writing codification is conscionable different mode of gluing unneurotic your process and workflows, and our latest merchandise fundamentally gets AI to beryllium this palmy idiosyncratic to assistance acceptable up your Notion workspace for you, and that’s different mode to onboard customers. That’s a marque caller mode to unlock that we’ve added successful the past twelvemonth to 2 years.

I volition accidental that it has been precise almighty for maine successful a batch of antithetic products. Being capable to usage the in-app AI to say, “How bash I bash this?” And really getting an answer. As idiosyncratic who has spent a batch of clip successful assistance menus implicit the years, digging astir and not uncovering what I was looking for, that has been ace useful.

And it’s not conscionable helping by teaching the quality to bash it. More and more, AI tin conscionable bash it, right?

Right.

That’s the biggest difference, actually. If you deliberation astir what’s happening successful bundle close now, bundle is mostly radical providing the tools for humans to use, and much and much companies are realizing, “Wait a second, we person this caller happening called a connection model. It’s similar a quality mini-intern successful a box, and we should plan our bundle to thatch AI however to usage it truthful humans tin inquire AI to bash the enactment and usage the tools, and humans tin bash mode much things with it.”

I privation to inquire you immoderate of the Decoder questions that Nilay would inquire if helium were here. Notion was past valued astatine $10 cardinal astir 4 years ago, erstwhile you raised your past circular of funding. What has allowed you to support increasing without raising much funding? Are you profitable?

We’re profitable. So, profitable, increasing fast; the concern is doing well.

Nice. How does that feel?

It feels good. I would accidental the larger operator of our mundane enactment is the information that the bundle manufacture is wholly changing with AI. It feels similar the AI epoch of the past 2 years conscionable makes the SaaS epoch consciousness similar sleeping days. It’s a bigger operator of our execution strategy than conscionable moving a profitable business.

I’d similar to perceive much astir however that is working. Is it the lawsuit that executives spot AI changing assorted workplaces, and they think, “We request to fig retired our mentation of this,” and truthful they travel to Notion to assistance them fig it out? 

Or is it that your merchandise teams are truthful excited astir the possibilities that you’re conscionable present seeing them physique features, which are past drafting successful caller customers?

I would accidental customers are lagging down astatine the moment. Most radical don’t know. It happens with each caller technology. You don’t cognize what to bash with it. The lawsuit is not going to archer you. It’s the radical who play with this, physique things, and possibly person an imaginativeness a fewer years into the future, oregon adjacent a fewer months successful the future, astatine this point. AI is changing truthful fast. So a batch is from ourselves, conscionable playing with AI and realizing, “Holy moly, this is simply a precise antithetic thing. You tin lick problems that you couldn’t lick earlier with classical software.” Now, what are you going to bash with it?

There’s really an absorbing story. My co-founder, Simon Last, and I received aboriginal entree to GPT-4. So this is similar precocious 2022, a small spot earlier everybody else. We thought everybody other would get aboriginal entree to this. We thought, “Holy shit,” due to the fact that compared to GPT-3, GPT-4 is simply a brand-new thing. It’s similar it has existent intelligent reasoning successful it. So we locked ourselves successful a edifice country for astir a week, and conscionable tried to unreserved retired the archetypal Notion AI product. We really launched a period earlier ChatGPT happened. We were excited astir what you tin bash with this caller benignant of material. That’s for Notion, that vigor comes from there.

How galore employees bash you person implicit there? How large is Notion today?

High 3 digits. So, 900, possibly approaching 1,000.

How bash you deliberation astir institution size? Do you spot a satellite wherever determination are 5 times that galore employees? Or bash you privation to support it determination astir wherever it is close now?

I deliberation there’s nary close reply for the implicit number, but there’s an reply for the density of the talent. The denser the better.

You similar having fewer, but much talented radical arsenic opposed to much people?

I similar to person fewer, if we tin bash the enactment with less people, and there’s little connection overhead. People person much ownership, and radical tin enactment things crossed boundaries. That’s conscionable amended overall. The institution moves faster. The tiny car tin crook corners overmuch amended than a large car, and we ever telephone Notion a tiny bus. We effort to support the autobus arsenic choky arsenic possible.

What’s your org chart? How is Notion organized?

Fairly classic. It’s maine and my co-founders, Simon Last and Akshay Kothari. Simon is inactive coding each day. Akshay runs our merchandise and plan org and research. Our main exertion officer, Fuzzy Khosrowshahi, runs each of the engineering. Our main gross officer, Erica Anderson, is liable for sales, marketing, and user experience. And we person our main concern officer, Rama Katkar, and wide counsel, Hasani Caraway. That’s our classical org chart.

So you didn’t consciousness the request to reinvent the instrumentality determination oregon bash immoderate innovating, conscionable benignant of make classical institution divisions and fto radical spell bash their thing.

Classic institution divisions and high-quality radical support the autobus tight. So that allows you to beryllium profitable. 

How bash you marque large decisions? Do you person a model you use? Or is each determination different?

Well, determination are the emblematic one-way doors and two-way doors. With a one-way door, you effort to determination fast, and with a two-way door, you deliberation a small spot much cautiously and slumber connected it. Those are reasoning accelerated and dilatory types of things. I’m beauteous detailed. I similar to enactment connected the notes, truthful there’s a definite occupation I’m bully at. Personally, it gives maine energy, and I’m funny successful moving connected the crushed successful the trenches with everybody. 

There are definite parts, though, similar I cannot tally our concern team. Our CFO, Rama Katkar, is truly amazing. She takes attraction of that. But for definite things — similar plan and product, engineering, marketing, and branding — I similar to get involved.

You’ve ever struck maine arsenic a merchandise CEO. I deliberation from the archetypal clip I met you, it seemed to maine what was astir absorbing to you astir your institution was the instrumentality itself that you were building, arsenic opposed to the marketplace opportunity, oregon thing similar that.

I built Notion due to the fact that I wanted to physique Notion, not due to the fact that I wanted to commencement a institution oregon business. I wanted this happening to exist.

Let maine inquire you 1 much determination question, astir 1 of the bigger decisions you had to make. So successful 2015, you decided to unopen down the 1.0 mentation of Notion, relocate to Japan, and yet relaunch Notion 2.0, which is benignant of the Notion that we deliberation of erstwhile we usage it today. How did you marque that decision?

Well, you person to, different you die, right? At that point, it was like, “We’re gathering connected the incorrect thing, the incorrect foundation,” and you cognize what the close happening is, but it’s conscionable going to instrumentality you possibly a twelvemonth to a twelvemonth and a fractional to physique the close thing. We were a institution of astir 5 people, and we were going to tally retired of money. 

The lone mode to bash it was to shrink it backmost to conscionable maine and my co-founder, Simon. So, we started over. Japan is simply a bully spot due to the fact that it is inexpensive, and we person ne'er been there. It was interesting, and we could conscionable absorption connected building.

I cognize different founders who person been successful that situation, and that’s the infinitesimal wherever they gave up, due to the fact that they thought, “You cognize what? Maybe I could deliberation of different happening to physique here, but it seems exhausting. It’s going to instrumentality a year. I’ve already enactment a twelvemonth and a fractional oregon truthful into this app. I gave it everything I had. It didn’t work.”

What was it that made you say, “No, we’re going to support going connected this. We deliberation that determination is simply a imaginativeness present that we tin really achieve”?

The extremity was ne'er to commencement a business, similar I mentioned. The extremity was to physique this thing, and the happening didn’t rather exist. Notion is 1 of the fewer bundling, consolidating bundle productivity tools retired there, and it didn’t rather beryllium astatine the time. Software for LEGO doesn’t exist. So if I started a company, I wanted to bash the aforesaid thing. Why don’t I conscionable reset and spell backmost to Simon and maine truthful we tin agelong the wealth a spot longer?

Actually, I conscionable got backmost from Kyoto past week, wherever determination was a tech event, and the Kyoto politician and I did a fireside chat and talked astir this story. They wanted to speech astir utilizing Notion arsenic an illustration of however we tin blend tech and Kyoto’s trade tradition. Because we’re besides inspired a batch by the trade radical successful Kyoto, however they dedicate their clip to gathering something, and not conscionable for wealth oregon fame.

That is truthful crazy. I was really successful Kyoto past week, too. I was connected abrogation and went determination for the archetypal time, and I had an unthinkable time. Kyoto’s amazing. 

You get the consciousness that it’s a small spot slower pace. People attraction astir what [they’re making], right? People genuinely care. That’s the thing. It’s the main thing. It’s not the business, it’s not their different surroundings.

Oh absolutely. I mean, you spell to these temples that are 1,000-plus years old, and the attraction and the craftsmanship that they enactment into them is genuinely inspiring. It’s profoundly beautiful. It’s precise connected to their spirituality, and their religion, culture, and history. So I could recognize wherefore a laminitis would spell determination and instrumentality a batch of inspiration.

Yeah, due to the fact that it’s a spot slower too, you tin absorption connected virtual spaces, connected computers.

Yeah, it’s not similar San Francisco, with our go-go nightlife, our Waymos, the enactment scene, each of that.

Or New York, even, adjacent much of that.

One much of these. This isn’t strictly a Decoder question, but it spiritually feels similar a Decoder question that I wanted to inquire you. What is the champion productivity instrumentality that you usage that is not made by Notion?

I similar those chatbot products: ChatGPT, Anthropic’s Claude. It’s rather amazing, particularly erstwhile talking astir features, similar the speech mode. I emotion those. I similar to larn from them.

You similar dependable mode?

The dependable mode, yeah. It helps maine larn a batch of antithetic things. When I’m making java and waiting for the h2o to boil, I tin conscionable speech with this happening for a small bit, similar for 2 minutes. It’s perfect.

What bash you inquire it about? What bash you similar to larn about?

Oh, each kinds. What’s astir recent? In Japan, I was speechmaking a publication astir Marshall McLuhan. 

The media theorist?

Yeah, media theorist and theologian. Many of his concepts are hard to interpret, truthful it’s amended to conscionable enactment done them with a connection exemplary that volition assistance usher you. It’s the champion tutor, truly. Education should beryllium precise different. Hopefully, it volition beryllium precise antithetic a fewer years from now.

I deliberation so. This isn’t rather a tutoring usage case, but I conscionable person to say, erstwhile I was successful Kyoto past week, we were successful the vicinity and had immoderate clip to kill, truthful I conscionable opened Google Maps, and it benignant of opens to wherever we are, and I took a screenshot. I conscionable sent it to ChatGPT, and I said, “Tell america a spot astir this neighborhood.”

It gave maine a past of the neighborhood. It told maine astir the chill restaurants, chill java shops, a museum, and places that we could locomotion to. I mean, it genuinely was arsenic bully arsenic I tin ideate getting from immoderate guide, and it was arsenic elemental arsenic uploading a screenshot. The full happening took 15 seconds. It was chaotic to me.

Yeah. One usage lawsuit I have, if I spell to a celebrated architectural building, is that I say, “Hey, I’m astatine this place, archer maine astir it. I’m looking astatine this part, a country of this building. Tell maine much astir wherefore that is the case,” right? Because if it’s celebrated enough, it’s astir apt portion of the corpus of training. So, the connection exemplary knows astir it.

Yeah.

You tin conscionable instrumentality a genuinely guided tour, and you don’t request different person; you’re conscionable talking with your machine.

Well, that seems similar a bully segue into Notion and AI. We’ve talked astir what Notion is, however it’s changed. Notion present bills itself arsenic the “AI workspace that works for you.” So, what does an AI workspace mean to you? What bash you privation it to beryllium for us?

If you deliberation astir our strategy during the SaaS era, it’s bundling and consolidating a clump of antithetic tools for cognition enactment into 1 place. What’s changed successful the past mates of years is that it present has each that brushed cognition of LEGO successful Notion; you tin not lone supply the tools, but you tin besides assemble them arsenic your AI teammates. They tin bash the enactment for you. 

We are fortunate to person that cognition enactment LEGO successful 1 spot truthful you tin portion it unneurotic successful a precise absorbing way. Because 1 extremity tin instrumentality notes for you, the different extremity tin assistance you manage, triage projects, and constitute documents. Those are basal things, but much and more, with much LEGO and smarter models, you fundamentally prosecute Notion arsenic your AI teammate. That’s the aboriginal that we’ve been building, oregon gathering much toward.

I retrieve 1 clip I was gathering with you, and you conscionable launched immoderate of these AI tools, and you were showing maine that Notion AI was taking notes astir assorted meetings. So you were capable to dip into meetings astatine the institution that you did not personally attend, and conscionable benignant of rapidly drawback up connected what your coworkers were talking about.

I thought, “That’s ace interesting.” That’s the benignant of diagnostic that I tin ideate a batch of CEOs wanting, but earlier this point, they haven’t had that level of visibility into their ain company.

We conscionable launched 3 abstracted products a mates of months ago, similar Notion AI for Work, including the adjacent mentation of this endeavor hunt merchandise you’re talking about. So, on with that was the motorboat of our AI Meeting Notes product, truthful each your meetings tin beryllium recorded and transcribed. 

So essentially, your institution has a corporate encephalon of what’s going on, and you person each the AI cognition workers connected apical of Notion to assistance you transcribe the gathering notes and reply immoderate questions you whitethorn have. It’s rather absorbing what you tin bash with the exertion now.

Of each the AI features that you’ve added truthful far, which ones bash you personally find the astir useful?

I usage AI gathering notes. Almost each meeting, but this one, I record, and I usage that for meetings truthful I tin stock notes with different people. I usage it for myself, arsenic a starting presumption to dump my thoughts. And truthful I tin aboriginal retrieve to inquire AI to crook the transcription into writing. English is my 2nd language, truthful I’m not the fastest writer, but AI tin bash amended penning than I tin if I conscionable dump retired what’s connected the apical of my caput done the AI transcription feature.

That’s truly interesting. There’s a batch of speech close present astir AI, and whether it mightiness regenerate workers, oregon full workflows, oregon functions wrong an organization. You’ve talked contiguous astir AI being capable to service arsenic a benignant of teammate. 

Do you deliberation that AI and Notion volition get to a constituent wherever executives volition prosecute less people, due to the fact that Notion volition bash it for them? Or are you much focused connected conscionable helping radical bash their existing jobs?

We’re really putting retired a run astir this, successful the coming weeks oregon months. We privation to propulsion retired a much amplifying, affirmative connection astir what Notion tin bash for you. So, ideate the billboard we’re putting out. It’s you successful the center. Then, with a instrumentality similar Notion oregon different AI tools, you tin person AI teammates. Imagine that you and I commencement a company. We’re 2 co-founders, we motion up for Notion, and each of a sudden, we’re supplemented by different AI teammates, immoderate taking notes for us, immoderate triaging, immoderate doing probe portion we’re sleeping. 

So, each of a sudden, we’re a squad oregon a institution of 10 people. Then the startup tin tally overmuch faster. That’s the imaginativeness we privation to propulsion much towards the world. So, much of an amplifying force, alternatively than a zero-sum force.

What timeframe bash you deliberation that arrives? Does that consciousness similar it’s astir wrong reach? Or bash you deliberation we’re going to request to spot respective much probe breakthroughs earlier that benignant of happening becomes possible?

From idiosyncratic who’s gathering with this each day, I deliberation the capableness is beauteous overmuch there. There are antithetic spectrum complexities of cognition work. The exemplary is rather smart. I would accidental what’s lacking is the plumbing, the toolings that unlock the capableness of the model. That’s fundamentally what Notion is doing, with the LEGO blocks being the plumbing and tooling. So, that’s 1 constraint. 

The different constraint is conscionable however radical usage it, and however radical plug it into their workforce. Bureaucracy is sometimes a bully thing, and sometimes it’s a atrocious thing. In this case, I deliberation it’s really a bully thing, due to the fact that it slows things down a small bit. It gives radical the clip to accommodate and to larn with this caller tool. I deliberation it’s good. So, the capableness is much oregon little there, and if not, each 3 months you get a caller one. The trends conscionable support coming, right?

At the aforesaid time, I deliberation the biggest flaw successful the AI models that we person contiguous is that they’re not reliable. They don’t reply the aforesaid question the aforesaid mode 100 percent of the time. So, if I’m relying connected it for mission-critical stuff, if it’s 1 of the 10 “people” astatine my company, and I archer it to spell drawback immoderate facts and figures, and it conscionable benignant of hallucinates the incorrect one, that’s truly bad. 

If that were a existent worker, I would, I don’t know, enactment them connected a show betterment program oregon something. So however bash you deliberation astir reliability arsenic a situation to what kinds of services you privation to connection people?

Yeah, it’s decidedly an issue, and I would accidental it’s getting amended successful general. I would accidental the best, closest intelligence exemplary is treating the connection exemplary conscionable similar a human, conscionable similar an intern. Humans marque mistakes. Your spot level, erstwhile you archer different quality something, is that there’s nary warrant that this quality cannot messiness it up oregon archer different person, adjacent though you don’t privation them to, right?

So, we’re yet gathering spot this way. People’s expectations for bundle are higher due to the fact that software, for the longest time, was ever nonstop — determination are nary bugs. It ever does precisely what it’s told. AI is simply a caller benignant of software. Our anticipation hasn’t been acceptable connected however to woody with this yet. I deliberation arsenic much radical get utilized to it, arsenic we alteration our habits astir it and companies alteration their workflows astir it, I deliberation we’ll find an equilibrium that’s amplifying the amended portion of this exertion and dealing with its shortcomings. 

Yeah, I deliberation the podcaster, Dwarkesh Patel, said thing like, “An AI contiguous is amended than an intern connected time one, but worse than an intern connected time five.” Because connected time one, they person each the cognition of quality history, and they tin benignant of dazzle you with their capabilities.

But also, they person occupation learning, and it’s hard to amusement them however to bash thing erstwhile and past person them bash it reliably each azygous time. Whereas a quality being could bash that. So, I’m personally precise curious, erstwhile is the constituent erstwhile an AI is amended than that day-five intern?

I deliberation each companies, including Notion, are trying to fig retired techniques to inject representation and learning into this “intern.” In the coming quarters, you volition spot products with this baked in.

Okay, present my ears are perking up, due to the fact that it sounds similar we’re getting a small spot of a preview. Do you privation to archer america what you’re moving connected implicit there?

Similar to the run I conscionable talked about. A mates of months ago, we launched Notion AI for Work. It has AI gathering notes and heavy probe to assistance you draught documents. For the upcoming product, you tin really present ideate each 1 is an AI intern and tin bash a specialized thing, right? With the upcoming product, you tin really make antithetic flavors of AI interns, AI teammates, that unrecorded with you successful your workspace. That’s arsenic acold arsenic I privation to share. Well, you’ll spot much soon. And Notion AI tin bash everything you tin do, everything a quality tin do.

I similar the dependable of that. Let maine inquire you astir my merchandise request, and you cognize this request, due to the fact that I’ve had it for a portion now. Basically, erstwhile you archetypal started adding AI features into Notion a fewer years ago, I enactment successful this request, due to the fact that each nexus that has ever been successful my newsletter, Platformer, is stored successful a Notion database. In galore cases, that includes the afloat nonfiction text, and what I privation is to beryllium capable to person a speech with that peculiar database. It would beryllium truthful utile for probe and brainstorming columns. 

At the aforesaid time, it’s hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of words. It’s not the benignant of happening that you could easy propulsion into a discourse model and conscionable fto maine person that conversation. So, my question, Ivan, is wherever are we connected this imagination of mine?

To beryllium capable to person a speech with each your thousands of articles successful Notion?

Yes.

It is astir apt already there, due to the fact that the techniques person been invented. You’re close that you don’t person to acceptable everything into a discourse window. You tin scale everything, embed everything, and portion accusation retired arsenic you request it. There’s different method that’s been fashionable successful the past twelvemonth oregon so, called instrumentality use. It fundamentally teaches the connection model, your agent, to cognize however to usage search. 

So, if you person a question that’s not successful the discourse model initially, the cause tin spell there, conscionable similar a quality can, to find much accusation astir it. It volition instrumentality a small spot much clip round-trip, but eventually, it volition springiness you what you want. So, caller techniques volition marque the usage cases you’re describing better.

I similar the dependable of that. And you bash person an Ask Notion feature already that I ideate tin entree immoderate constituent of what I’m talking about, and a batch of this worldly is conscionable benignant of connected the web, truthful determination are different ways of accessing it. But I conscionable ever think, “Man, if I could person a lightning accelerated mode of conscionable chatting with this database the mode I would chat with a coworker, that’d beryllium ace cool.”

Oh, it should already beryllium successful your Notion workspace. Happy to locomotion you done the caller endeavor hunt we conscionable launched. It’s cleanable for that.

Okay, great. All right, we’ll troubleshoot that offline. OpenAI has travel up a mates of times today. You enactment intimately with the company. Recently, it announced that you tin usage ChatGPT to create presentations and descent decks. All of the large labs are moving connected these full-stack virtual assistants that they accidental mightiness someday beryllium capable to bash thing a distant idiosyncratic mightiness beryllium capable to do. 

Do you deliberation that they’ll get determination successful the next, let’s say, 5 years? And what relation bash you spot Notion playing successful a satellite wherever AI’s capabilities are rapidly expanding that way?

Yeah, 1 mode to deliberation astir it is connected the spectrum, whether it’s much personal, business-to-consumer flavored. Or it’s similar business-to-business, team-first flavored.

I would accidental astir AI labs’ products are presently much idiosyncratic assistant-flavored. It tin assistance you bash enactment oregon assistance you cheat connected your homework. Usually, B2C tends to beryllium winner-takes-all, oregon determination are fewer winners, and I deliberation it makes consciousness for labs similar OpenAI to spell truly hard successful that direction. Notion squarely is simply a B2B company. Our product, our concern model, is for different businesses, and wrong B2B, you’re required to marque antithetic tradeoffs. 

There are truthful galore antithetic subcategories, and it has to beryllium team-first to start. That’s wherefore our AI teammates, our AI cause and AI system, fundamentally unrecorded successful a squad abstraction that you oregon the remainder of your company’s employees unrecorded in. That’s the space we’re taking. In my opinion, determination volition beryllium galore antithetic winners successful B2B AI, due to the fact that B2B usually is not winner-takes-all, and you request to marque precise antithetic tradeoffs.

That’s interesting. I’m inactive not definite I wholly understand. Say a spot much astir what this business-to-business AI satellite looks like, and wherefore it is that it volition person galore winners, whereas business-to-consumer possibly doesn’t?

Well, you tin deliberation astir it successful the nonrecreational setting. So if you deliberation astir each cognition work, it is lawyers, accountants, programmers, and lawsuit support, and they’re each different. They necessitate you to marque a small spot of a antithetic trade-off; that’s a antithetic benignant of AI agent. You tin already spot this successful the first-generation AI agent. They request to beryllium specialized and request to plug into antithetic contexts.

On the user side, you conscionable privation to chat with your AI chatbot. It’s precise universal. That’s wherefore connected the B2C side, successful the erstwhile generation, determination were iPhone and Android. There are 2 things, largely, and successful the B2B SaaS world, determination are thousands of antithetic companies and hundreds of antithetic categories. So, whether it’s a bundle oregon AI product, you person to marque precise antithetic trade-offs. You cannot beryllium an airplane and a submarine astatine the aforesaid time, right? That’s wherefore successful the nonrecreational setting, you spot a lawyer cause and a fiscal agent, and they behave precise differently. They request to behave precise differently, compared to your idiosyncratic adjunct that you aftermath up to each time and tin chat with.

Right now, you merchantability AI tools arsenic an add-on successful your concern and endeavor plans. I’m funny if this hurts your borderline astatine all? We perceive a batch astir however costly and compute-intensive, resource-intensive AI systems tin beryllium to operate. Is it a situation to integrate those resource-hungry tools into your existing subscription?

We really precocious merged AI into our main plan, due to the fact that much than fractional of our income are present from customers who privation to bargain our AI product. So, it makes consciousness to conscionable simplify the pricing buckets, to conscionable see AI into everything. It does marque the borderline not arsenic bully arsenic axenic SaaS, but no. It’s truthful powerful, and radical admit it. And still, the institution is currency travel positive, truthful our CFO loves that, contempt it being a antithetic borderline profile.

We’ve already seen immoderate companies move toward usage-based pricing for AI, which, arsenic a consumer, I hate. I don’t privation to marque micropayments to inquire ChatGPT a question, but it does look similar that is possibly a amended concern model. What bash you deliberation astir the tradeoffs there?

I don’t deliberation radical person figured it out, particularly successful the concern setting. The archetypal procreation is benignant of similar lawsuit support. With lawsuit support, you tin effort to representation what they telephone result resolution-based pricing. That makes sense. Then there’s benignant of the 2nd generation, which is retired close now, and that’s coding. With coding, there’s a spot base, but if you usage a lot, you person to spell to usage-based pricing. That benignant of makes sense, due to the fact that done exchange, it is simply a portion of work. You get your file, you get your bundle astatine the extremity of the day. So radical admit that, and it saves programmers truthful overmuch much clip than really penning the portion of bundle themselves.

Knowledge enactment is nebulous. With cognition work, you can’t enactment a terms connected it. It’s this chunk of a doc, but however overmuch is it worth? You can’t truly quantify that. And however bully is simply a portion of cognition work? How bully is your merchandise spec? You can’t enactment a dollar motion connected it. So, it’s overmuch harder for a general-purpose cognition enactment merchandise similar Notion. That’s the thing, the full manufacture needs to fig it out.

That’s truly interesting. What bash you privation that AI would marque imaginable successful Notion that isn’t rather imaginable yet?

You tin ever get cheaper, faster, and smarter, but you cognize the bid is coming successful that direction, truthful it does necessitate you to physique a institution successful a antithetic way. I deliberation this is what the bundle manufacture is realizing close now.

Say much astir that.

I ne'er worked during the dot com era. That was a small spot earlier me. People accidental that during that era, the web modular changed each the time, each mates of months, oregon each 3 months it’s different. And determination was Intel and the Moore’s Law era, wherever you could conscionable expect that 18 months later, the adjacent CPU would thrust immoderate bundle you wanted. 

AI feels similar that, but connected steroids. Like each 3 months, the adjacent exemplary tin bash what you couldn’t bash before. So it does necessitate you to truly alteration however you physique bundle and physique products, and however you physique a company. A mates of things: One is due to the fact that it’s perpetually changing, and the exemplary itself doesn’t similar excessively galore restrictions; you request to physique a harness conscionable astir the close places. It’s astir similar if you physique excessively overmuch astir the bid track, the adjacent bid comes, and you conscionable made what you conscionable built obsolete, right? You should physique parallel to the bid track. That’s fig one.

Number 2 is that the connection exemplary is not deterministic. It’s antithetic from classical bundle engineering. The metaphor I similar to usage is that classical bundle engineering is similar gathering bid tracks oregon gathering bridges. It’s Newtonian physics. Everything’s predictable, and if you tin ideate it, you tin physique it. Sometimes it takes 3 months, sometimes six months, but yet you tin physique it, right?

With this connection exemplary thing, it’s squishy and it’s organic. The analogy I emotion to usage is similar brewing beer, right? You cannot archer the yeast, “Hey, my brew is gonna sensation similar this. Please ferment yourself. Become similar that.” You person to transmission what’s successful the model. The champion you tin bash is make an environment, massage the data, massage the context, and past anticipation for the best. 

So, this requires a overmuch much iterative approach. You cannot travel from your imaginativeness oregon lawsuit needs first. You person to travel from what the exertion gives you — what the yeast, what the beer, gives you. So, truly let your squad to beryllium much empirical, much experimental, little of this benignant of waterfall, classical mode of specing to code. It should beryllium much similar incremental, iterative. All those adhd unneurotic and unit you to design, engineer, and make products differently. 

Does it alteration the mode that you hire? Does it alteration the mode that you operation teams? How does that strangeness that you picture construe into a antithetic company?

People request to beryllium much good with ambiguity. People request to emotion ambiguity. People request to beryllium much experimental. The bound betwixt roles is going to beryllium adjacent greater. Like astatine Notion, we’d prosecute a decorator who tin code, due to the fact that if you’re an technologist and decorator successful one, you tin deliberation a batch much ambiguously, much fluidly, right? 

AI clip pushed that adjacent further, due to the fact that the plan and merchandise beryllium broadside by broadside with engineers. Oftentimes, what you privation cannot beryllium built, truthful you person to truly effort a clump of antithetic things. That’s wherefore you spot a batch of merchandise demos get to similar 60 to 70 percent, but ne'er go a existent product. That’s due to the fact that it’s bully for making demos, but to get to accumulation B2B software, you request to beryllium truly good. You request to beryllium reliable. Oftentimes, you ne'er get there.

I deliberation astir this a batch successful the discourse of these voice-based assistants. What I mostly usage them for is mounting a timer oregon asking what the upwind is, these precise deterministic things. And the companies that are gathering [voice-based assistants] are trying to integrate these caller AI-based backends. But it’s incredibly hard, due to the fact that if the idiosyncratic is inactive utilizing the product, they’re inactive going to privation to acceptable the timer, and if it goes from doing it correctly 100 percent of the clip to similar 93 percent of the time, that’s a overmuch worse product.

But I deliberation arsenic humans, we each larn what this benignant of exertion is champion at. It’s erstwhile you’re having a conversation, similar erstwhile utilizing the dependable mode, that you privation it to beryllium ambiguous. You privation it to spell to antithetic places. That’s a feature, not a bug. I deliberation we — arsenic a full manufacture making bundle with AI, and we arsenic an assemblage who usage it — haven’t figured retired the stance yet. It volition instrumentality immoderate clip to fig this out, similar the champion worldly to use.

Well, I privation to extremity conscionable by asking what you deliberation Notion looks similar a small spot into the future. I volition not inquire you astir 5 years from now, due to the fact that I don’t deliberation anybody has 5 years’ worthy of visibility into anything.

Nobody knows. 

But if I could possibly inquire for similar 2 years from now, what bash you anticipation Notion is doing that it’s possibly not doing today?

I think, to spell backmost to what we conscionable talked about, that the quality of bundle is changing. It’s changing and evolving from conscionable a acceptable of tools to this integrated matter, to a instrumentality that tin bash immoderate enactment for you, right? The bosom of this institution is successful SaaS software. The classical bundle epoch allows radical to physique tools, to let radical to usage LEGO to make immoderate tools they want. 

Because the quality of that bundle is changing, what we attraction astir allows you to make AI teammates to assistance you instrumentality immoderate of the astir repetitive cognition enactment you don’t similar to do. If we tin recognize that, determination are a batch of implications. The adjacent procreation of builders is going to tally a institution precise otherwise — and I attraction astir solving that problem.

All right, well, Ivan, acknowledgment truthful overmuch for joining maine today.

Thank you for having me.

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