How the head of Obsidian went from superfan to CEO

Welcome to Decoder! This is Casey Newton, laminitis and exertion of Platformer and cohost of the Hard Fork podcast. I’ve had a batch of amusive guest-hosting a fewer episodes of Decoder portion Nilay is retired connected parental permission this summer. If you listened to the past mates of Monday shows, you cognize I’ve been doing a bid with founders who are focused connected productivity.

This is my 3rd and, sadly, past clip joining the amusement during the break, but I’m precise excited astir this episode. Today I’m talking with Steph Ango, who is the CEO of Obsidian.

Obsidian is simply a note-taking and productivity app that fits into a akin “second brain” abstraction to Notion, the CEO of which I interviewed present connected Decoder past week. But Obsidian differentiates itself with a truly antithetic attack to its business. It inactive wants to beryllium your full idiosyncratic cognition basal — to clasp each your notes, links, files, and different accusation — but it works successful a precise antithetic way.

In Obsidian, files are Markdown-based, stored locally connected your ain devices, and wholly escaped to use. You’ll perceive Steph accidental that helium doesn’t adjacent cognize however galore users Obsidian has oregon however sticky the bundle is, which is much oregon little unheard of among startups I cover.

Obsidian does complaint a subscription interest for entree to definite features, including cross-device sync, mentation history, and web publishing. But it’s inactive a exemplary that feels decidedly old-fashioned for bundle that’s trying to support up with the existent world, and truthful I had to inquire him astir those decisions. 

Steph’s relation arsenic CEO is besides unusual, due to the fact that though Obsidian is inactive a precise young, precise small, and precise level organization, he’s really not 1 of the founders. He joined successful 2023, erstwhile cofounders Shida Li and Erica Xu brought him successful based connected his acquisition with his erstwhile startup, Lumi. He was besides a immense Obsidian fan.

So I truly wanted to inquire him astir that, too, due to the fact that I suspected his answers to the large Decoder questions astir enactment and decision-making were going to beryllium beauteous antithetic for a Decoder guest. 

And successful 1 absorbing twist, I asked Steph why, erstwhile truthful galore of his competitors look to beryllium racing to worldly their productivity products with AI features, it didn’t look similar Obsidian was each excessively anxious to travel suit. His answer, I thought, was beauteous illuminating. 

Okay, Obsidian CEO Steph Ango. Here we go.

This interrogation has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity.

Steph Ango, you are the CEO of Obsidian. Welcome to Decoder.

Thanks, Casey. I’m gladsome to beryllium here.

What is Obsidian? How does it enactment and who is it for?

If you truly privation to boil it down, Obsidian is simply a note-taking app. A batch of radical usage it for penning their thoughts down, journaling. A batch of radical are students who similar to way their advancement done school, oregon bash their probe notes. There are authors, publication writers, large fans of RPGs who emotion to usage it. What makes Obsidian unsocial is that it benignant of works similar Wikipedia, successful that the halfway portion is simply a nexus betwixt your notes. So, if I was to constitute astir my acquisition contiguous successful my journal, I’d say, “I was connected the Decoder podcast with Casey,” and each clip I mentioned thing I mightiness signifier a nexus retired of “Decoder.”

It’s good if that nexus is not pointing to thing yet, but aboriginal down the road, I mightiness make a enactment for Decoder because I privation to way immoderate of the absorbing interviews I’ve listened to connected that podcast. So implicit time, your web of cognition becomes greater and you person much nodes successful your Obsidian. Fundamentally, erstwhile you unfastened the app, it works a batch similar Apple Notes, Evernote, Notion, oregon immoderate different akin benignant of app retired there.

When you joined the institution successful 2023, you said, “I can’t overstate however life-changing Obsidian has been for me. It has fundamentally improved the mode I think. I privation to spot what happens if much radical summation that superpower.” What bash you consciousness similar is the superpower that Obsidian gave you, and wherefore did nary different products marque you consciousness rather the aforesaid way?

I’ve been penning notes and journaling for implicit 20 years, and I’ve utilized a batch of antithetic apps. This thought of reasoning astir the satellite similar your ain idiosyncratic Wikipedia was truly powerful. I had benignant of kludged unneurotic a fewer antithetic apps to marque thing that benignant of worked that way.  A batch of Wiki-based bundle already existed, but astir of it was designed astir publishing a afloat Wiki to the web arsenic opposed to utilizing it for your ain idiosyncratic notes.

When it came out, the founders of Obsidian, Shida [Li] and Erica [Xu], had already enactment successful the level of polish that was not determination successful the glued unneurotic prototype that I had. It was instantly thing that made consciousness to me. It made consciousness besides due to the fact that the information is stored is successful this precise durable format that radical tin own, which is called Markdown. You get ace fans of Markdown and… for radical who’ve ne'er heard of it earlier successful the audience. I’m not definite who —

I deliberation we astir apt person a batch of Markdown users successful the Decoder audience, but for those who person possibly not seen it yet, however would you picture it?

Basically, the oldest record types we have, going backmost to the 1960s, are plain substance files. Markdown takes the thought of a plain substance file, which is conscionable earthy text, and allows you to adhd basal formatting. So, if you privation immoderate substance to beryllium bold, a heading, a table, oregon a list, it allows you to usage elemental characters similar punctuation marks to bespeak what’s going to beryllium bold oregon italic, for example. 

The powerfulness present is that the information is stored successful this precise elemental format. So, we person this presumption astir your information that you tin clasp your information for a agelong clip and you, oregon your kids’ kids, your legacy, immoderate it is, volition beryllium capable to work it 100 years from now. Maybe nary of the notes substance astatine all, oregon possibly they’ll beryllium curious. But what if that information could beryllium preserved implicit the agelong term? We deliberation that going backmost to immoderate of the simplest formats that beryllium and giving you that power implicit your information is much apt to persist implicit time. So, that’s 1 of our philosophies.

Going backmost to your question, I was truly excited astir the principles coming together. To the constituent of however it made maine deliberation differently, I deliberation erstwhile you person this conception of links and ideas that tin beryllium networked together, you tin commencement to signifier much complicated, complex, oregon absorbing thoughts than you different could. I don’t cognize astir different people, but I tin lone person 2 oregon 3 antithetic ideas successful my caput astatine once. But if you tin commencement to make these small gathering blocks of ideas, you tin harvester them successful absorbing ways. Your ideas go these small Lego blocks that you tin interchange and premix together, truthful you tin commencement forming immoderate absorbing and analyzable thoughts.

I would emotion to perceive an illustration of erstwhile you felt similar you were capable to bash that successful Obsidian. You’ve written online astir your note-taking practice. You described it for america a infinitesimal ago, talking astir however you support a regular diary and arsenic caller characters and ideas travel in, you’ll nexus them and physique them up implicit time. I’m funny astir that adjacent step. Is determination a clip erstwhile each of that added up to fto you marque thing you possibly wouldn’t person otherwise?

Well, determination are the projects I’m funny in. Even though I’m the CEO of Obsidian, I spot it arsenic a means to an end. I similar to write, truthful I constitute a batch of abbreviated essays connected my blog. A batch of the essays came from marinating successful Obsidian, wherever I tin statement with myself whether an thought is bully oregon not. I person this effort called “Pain Is Information.” I was going done a beauteous pugnacious clip a fewer years back, and I work this publication by [Haruki] Murakami, What I Talk About When I Talk About Running. It’s this autobiographical communicative astir running, and I came crossed this quote… I’m trying to retrieve it connected the fly, but it’s thing like, “When you motion up for a marathon, you cognize that you’re signing up for pain.” “Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.”

That thought was truly absorbing to maine due to the fact that I was going done a achy time. I was reasoning astir however touching your manus to a stove gives you a awesome that [doing] that’s a atrocious idea, but that’s information. So, I was starting to deliberation astir information, pain, and the narration betwixt those things. You tin spot however these ideas are forming retired of bladed air, retired of antithetic inspirations that I’m going through. And what I similar astir Obsidian is it gives you this spot to attack it successful a precise freeform mode and link antithetic concepts you mightiness beryllium reasoning about. 

For maine it’s successful this philosophical realm, but for different radical it mightiness beryllium with biology oregon connection learning. My spouse speaks Chinese, and I’ve been wanting to larn Chinese, truthful I’m starting to bring unneurotic these antithetic ideas. I’m into woodworking and I’m ever learning caller skills, caller details, oregon caller tools that I mightiness privation to use, and I’m doing probe astir that. All of those things tin coexist wrong of this integer place, which is benignant of weird due to the fact that you could person a transportation betwixt a woodworking tool, a metropolis I went to successful China, and the conception Murakami was describing, each those things are conscionable ingredients successful this soup, and you could commencement to travel up with ideas that you conscionable wouldn’t person thought of otherwise. Maybe that’s enlightening.

Something that a batch of radical worth astir Obsidian and akin apps is that they tin beryllium engines for serendipity. You stitchery strings successful the mode you conscionable described, and past successful the process of clicking backmost done your notes oregon utilizing different tools wrong the app, you revisit ideas and they spark caller ones oregon you spot connections that you mightiness not person otherwise.

Definitely. I deliberation that 1 of the benefits of this attack is that it’s rather freeform. What I’ve tally into with different tools oregon different approaches, similar a carnal journal, is that you’re rather constrained by the information that it’s conscionable pieces of insubstantial you flip through. It has the regulation of being a 2D surface. Or, a batch of apps usage folders oregon tags, whereas present you don’t person to cognize what thing is going to beryllium astir until aboriginal erstwhile the connections form. And you’re escaped to person 700 tabs unfastened wrong of Obsidian and beryllium doing this crazy, It’s Always Sunny caput mapping with the reddish thread everywhere. It allows you to bash that wherever thing with a much top-down hierarchy would marque it much difficult.

You’re not a co-founder of Obsidian. You were brought successful arsenic CEO successful 2023. How did that travel about, and what were you brought successful to do?

The app came retired successful 2020, and I recovered retired astir it with the archetypal version. It was close astatine the opening of the pandemic, and I deliberation each of america were going stir-crazy. There was this infinitesimal successful clip wherever a batch of absorbing tools popped up due to the fact that everybody was like, “What americium I going to bash with each this other escaped clip wherever I’m hanging retired astatine home?” So, I started utilizing it close distant for the reasons I described before. It made sense, and Obsidian is ace customizable, truthful you tin marque plugins, you tin marque themes, and you tin modify it successful truly important oregon tiny ways. I was conscionable starting to enactment each these assemblage things retired there. I was moving a antithetic startup astatine the time, and I was conscionable putting these things retired determination due to the fact that I was making them for myself and radical started utilizing them.

Shida and Erica are astonishing engineers who met astatine the University of Waterloo. They’re geniuses successful presumption of engineering and assemblage management. What I was bringing to the array arsenic a assemblage subordinate was a consciousness of plan and merchandise that they had a small little of. Because the Obsidian assemblage is truthful strong, immoderate of the things I was making were getting a batch of adoption, and I was collaborating with different radical successful the community. They recovered retired astir that and wanted to enactment a punctuation from maine connected their beforehand page. 

So, we started chatting, and past we started talking astir business. They started telling maine astir the concern exemplary and immoderate of the challenges that they were dealing with. We conscionable kept talking for a mates years, and I was utilizing Obsidian each the time. It was conscionable the main app that I had. When I sold my erstwhile startup, Lumi, I started to deliberation what would beryllium my adjacent thing. I was reasoning astir gathering thing other oregon starting a caller company, and I conscionable was spending each my clip successful Obsidian utilizing the app, and I realized I was having truthful overmuch amusive utilizing this tool. 

So, I pitched to them, “What if I could travel connected committee and assistance you guys?” At first, it took the signifier of declaration work, moving with them arsenic an advisor and moving connected the 1.0 merchandise that had this caller plan that I built. Shida is an unthinkable engineer, 1 of the champion I’ve ever worked with, and eventually, helium conscionable wanted to absorption connected that. It created this bully balance. We’re a truly tiny team. We are 7 full-time people, truthful there’s thing bully astir the equilibrium of the antithetic strengths we each have. Everyone tin benignant of bash everything, but astatine the aforesaid time, each idiosyncratic has their halfway strengths. 

For me, it’s astir design, consolidating the existent essence of Obsidian and trying to pass it retired to the world. Then, due to the fact that we’re lone 7 people, determination are a batch of hats to beryllium worn, whether it’s accounting, legal, each these are random things. Also, I had a batch of acquisition moving startups, truthful I deliberation that was helpful.

You mentioned the plugin ecosystem. It seems to maine that plugins person been 1 of the main ways that Obsidian has grown, some successful its diagnostic acceptable and successful gathering features that person attracted caller users. What was the root of plugins and however person they fueled the company’s growth?

In a way, plugins are what let america to enactment tiny due to the fact that determination are truthful galore capabilities that radical privation that are reasonably constrictive and volition lone beryllium utile to 1 percent oregon little of our idiosyncratic base. You spot this each the clip with apps that person been astir for a agelong time, wherever the diagnostic acceptable conscionable keeps increasing and growing. Then the app becomes bloated, slow, and hard to usage due to the fact that there’s conscionable excessively overmuch functionality successful there. 

For caller users, it becomes highly confusing. I deliberation initially, it was this antiaircraft determination against having to instrumentality each these features, to fundamentally say, “Here, you spell bash it.” And due to the fact that it’s built connected web technologies similar JavaScript and CSS, a batch of radical cognize however to physique things for it due to the fact that they cognize those languages. You don’t request to cognize Swift oregon beryllium a cross-platform app developer to cognize however to marque a plugin. You tin marque thing truly elemental successful a substance of minutes oregon hours depending connected your level. 

So, I deliberation the archetypal reasoning was that this volition let america to not physique everything ourselves. But then, the originative things radical travel up with are ever pushing the envelope of what our API should beryllium capable to enactment and however the level tin let adjacent much flexibility. I mean, retired of a fewer 1000 plugins that exist, lone a tiny information that truly marque consciousness to beryllium successful the halfway app. Some of them bash extremity up becoming thing we notice, similar erstwhile 80 percent of the idiosyncratic basal is relying connected 1 plugin. 

For example, close present we’re moving connected this happening called Bases, which allows you to presumption your notes successful a database-type format, and determination are a fig of plugins that bash thing similar that successful the Obsidian community. So, it’s a awesome to america that this is really truly important and should beryllium successful the halfway app.

What are immoderate different plugins that person conscionable been truly fashionable oregon took the app successful unexpected but palmy directions?

Some of the astir fashionable ones are precise simple. Somebody who’s connected the squad today, Tony Grosinger, wrote this plugin called Advanced Tables, which was conscionable a mode to simplify making tables successful Obsidian. We’re talking astir thing precise basic, but rows and columns were hard to bash earlier on, and if you’re idiosyncratic who wants to unrecorded wholly successful the Markdown world, they’re benignant of tricky to make. We ended up hiring Tony, and helium built that functionality alongside different developer who — fundamentally everyone we’ve hired oregon worked with was erstwhile a assemblage plugin writer oregon squad developer. That makes it truly casual for america to commencement bringing the close radical who are passionate astir Obsidian connected board. 

There are plugins astir theming, styling, changing fonts and colors. A batch of radical bask that customizability and privation to beryllium capable to marque this diary abstraction their own. There are a batch of plugins that assistance you integrate with different services. So, if you privation your calendar successful determination oregon thing similar that, you tin bash that. There are integrations into a cardinal antithetic apps retired there. If you privation to beryllium doing your tasks and to-do lists successful Obsidian, there’s a full clump of plugins that assistance you with that. The chill happening astir that is if you’re funny successful Obsidian due to the fact that you privation to bash satellite gathering for your RPG tabletop group, you tin bash that and you don’t person to person the full calendar functionality wrong of your Obsidian. You tin conscionable usage the plugins that person to bash with that.

Plugins were truly the archetypal happening that brought Obsidian to my attention. I’d been utilizing Roam Research, which I bash recognition for inventing a batch of the existent note-taking paradigm, but Obsidian conscionable developed overmuch faster acknowledgment to plugins. I’m funny what you did to pull those archetypal developers. Was it arsenic elemental arsenic having a truly bully API that was disposable aboriginal on? What was it that the institution did?

I deliberation it’s a operation of things. One, similar I mentioned, is that the languages and model are precise elemental for anyone to use. Anyone who’s done immoderate benignant of web improvement would beauteous overmuch cognize however to physique a plugin, truthful it’s precise accessible to a batch of developers. 

The values of Obsidian, conscionable arsenic a axenic note-taking tool, are precise aligned with what developers like. So, a batch of developers usage Obsidian arsenic their note-taking app of prime due to the fact that it’s backstage and it uses this Markdown format arsenic the halfway mode to constitute text. Because it’s truthful customizable, it attracts developers and past developers usage it each time long. We person published APIs that beauteous overmuch let you to bash thing with the app, and there’s a batch of documentation. So, it’s that combination: a batch of developers are utilizing it, it’s casual to marque the plugins, and we added the API precise aboriginal on. If you person that itch, you tin scratch it precise quickly. If Obsidian’s not moving the mode you want, you tin alteration it precise fast.

Recently, I interviewed Ivan Zhao of Notion for Decoder. You mentioned Notion is different merchandise successful this abstraction that sometimes radical mightiness take implicit Obsidian. It strikes maine that portion your products bash immoderate of the aforesaid things, they’re designed precise differently. Notion is astir pixel-perfect polish and beauteous interface elements. Obsidian, by default, tin look a spot much similar a terminal. You instrumentality notes successful Markdown, and it has much of this DIY, astir hacker ethos. Is that intentional and bash you deliberation it affects the kinds of users you attract?

I deliberation the cardinal quality betwixt Obsidian and Notion is that Notion is simply a unreality service. It’s an app that interfaces chiefly with bundle arsenic a service-type unreality service. You person to either beryllium successful your browser oregon connected an app, and you link to a root of information that’s successful the cloud. With Obsidian, each your information is local. So, if you’re not online —  if you’re connected a level oregon thing similar that — you ever person entree to your data. That quality shapes a full clump of different things.

For example, it would beryllium truly hard to adhd plugins to Notion due to the fact that it can’t marque it casual to tally arbitrary codification connected its cloud-based platform, whereas with Obsidian, it’s beauteous easy. So, there’s this cardinal divided that occurs due to the fact that of the architecture. It’s the aforesaid with things similar theming, design, and however overmuch idiosyncratic interface customizability determination is. I don’t cognize if this volition marque consciousness to anyone who’s listening, but erstwhile I was 11 oregon 12 years old, determination was Winamp, Winamp 2 was coming out, and I was each astir making themes and things for Winamp, which was a euphony subordinate that you could customize.

It really whipped the llama’s ass. I person to accidental that.

Absolutely. I deliberation there’s a spot of that spirit successful Obsidian. Obsidian is rather fashionable with a batch of younger people, and I don’t cognize what it is. At that time, you person the vigor and the tendency to person power implicit your integer space, and Obsidian makes that easy. So successful that sense, we’re a spot little prescriptive astir what the interface should look like, adjacent though we’re trying to marque it a small spot much approachable to inactive clasp infinite depth. It’s similar you’re going to the beach: we privation to marque the shallow waters a small much accessible for radical who are coming into it, but past you tin aquatics arsenic acold arsenic you like, arsenic heavy arsenic you like, into the complexity of Obsidian. Finding the close equilibrium betwixt those 2 things is rather challenging, and it’s thing we’re ever moving on.

As I mentioned, I utilized Roam, past I utilized Obsidian, and past I utilized Mem. Now I usage thing called Capacities. Obviously I person a immense problem. I’m moving connected it successful therapy. But I’m funny astir however sticky Obsidian is. It’s escaped to get started, but I ideate tons of radical wantonness their vaults aft lone creating a fewer escaped notes. What makes radical permission and what makes radical stay?

We really don’t cognize however galore users Obsidian has. We don’t cognize however sticky it is due to the fact that we don’t person immoderate analytics. It’s precise privacy-oriented, truthful we don’t way thing astir our users. We don’t cognize what abruptly causes idiosyncratic to churn oregon whatever. We similar not to way those things. Also, the information doesn’t person to beryllium exported. If Obsidian went retired of concern someday, you would inactive person the app connected your computer. Even if you chose not to usage it, you don’t adjacent person to motorboat the app. You don’t person to export anything. This is 1 of the large issues radical person had with different tools that person either gone retired of concern oregon been acquired by backstage equity firms that commencement tightening the screws and expanding the pricing implicit clip — you consciousness similar you’re locked successful and you can’t bash thing astir it.

With Obsidian, your information is there. I deliberation the feelings of state and information are paradoxically rather sticky due to the fact that adjacent though you person each your data, you could just… Personally, I’m perpetually editing my Obsidian files not successful Obsidian. I volition usage codification editors and different tools to bash wide modifications to hundreds of files. You tin tally Python scripts connected your data. You tin benignant of bash thing due to the fact that they’re conscionable files astatine the extremity of the day.

Just briefly, each record that is created successful Obsidian is simply a Markdown record that tin beryllium opened up successful fundamentally immoderate substance editor.

Yeah. So it’s not a database successful the cloud. It’s not a database connected your machine determination that different apps can’t access. It’s virtually conscionable a clump of files that you tin determination and alteration with immoderate app. So yes, it makes it a batch easier to permission the app, but it besides paradoxically gives radical comfortableness that they person that enactment astatine immoderate time. 

We’re not trying to beryllium Notion. Notion has raised hundreds of millions of dollars. I deliberation it’s amazing, particularly connected the collaboration side. It has a batch of advantages that marque the app amended for definite things. We’re conscionable a tiny team. Our absorption is to support making the instrumentality amended and enactment small, arsenic agelong arsenic we’re making capable wealth to enactment afloat.

We’re not trying to instrumentality implicit the world. We’re not trying to beryllium the adjacent Microsoft. That makes it a batch easier to marque semipermanent decisions that we consciousness are amended for ourselves oregon for our users. It’s the instrumentality that we privation to usage each time long. So, it’s good if radical leave. And antithetic radical person antithetic brains and antithetic approaches to thinking, truthful possibly they should leave. Maybe that would beryllium amended for them.

Let maine inquire you astir 1 situation I’ve had utilizing tools similar this. I wrote a mates of years ago astir however I had spent years linking and tagging each my notes, reviewing them connected a beauteous regular basis, and inactive not feeling similar I was getting a ton of insights from that process. I was disquieted that these tools tin beryllium a substitute for reasoning alternatively than an enhancement due to the fact that if you walk each time tending to your integer garden, you mightiness not walk arsenic overmuch clip conscionable walking down the thoroughfare and giving your encephalon the accidental to respire and ideate. Was I conscionable utilizing these tools incorrectly, oregon bash you deliberation that productivity tools tin sometimes beryllium counterproductive for people?

I deliberation they tin sometimes beryllium designed with anti-patterns that are explicitly astir that. Some companies person metrics that they track, similar the fig of progressive users, but however bash they specify active? So present they’re sending you notifications to punctual you to travel backmost to the app truthful that you bash immoderate the happening is. That’s portion of the crushed we’re not funny successful having immoderate of this information due to the fact that we don’t truly privation to beryllium tracking our users successful this mode oregon incentivizing them to make usage wherever nary is needed. If you usage Obsidian passim the time and you person these random ideas you conscionable privation to driblet wrong of your regular note, you should beryllium capable to bash that and not get sucked into this happening that’s trying to prosecute you. 

There are a batch of radical who support trying caller apps and thing sticks for them oregon they get caught up successful the enactment and beautification of their notes. I deliberation that tin hap successful immoderate app. I perceive astir this, successful general, and I don’t cognize what the origin is. My consciousness is that it has thing to bash with the apps unless they’re virtually trying to engagement-bait you successful these weird ways. I deliberation it’s benignant of an affliction of the integer age. These things are truthful malleable that it scratches an itch that we person successful our encephalon to optimize. For definite radical who emotion solving puzzles oregon doing Sudoku, it’s benignant of addictive successful a mode that mightiness not beryllium the astir healthy. 

I’m not precisely definite however to lick that. The mode I effort to code that, astatine slightest successful my idiosyncratic life, is being precise alert of however the concern of galore of these apps works and however they’re trying to seizure your attraction and time. So, I’m ever disabling notifications for everything, trying to walk a batch of clip walking successful nature, doing woodworking, cooking, and different activities that I find restorative. Then, that makes my Obsidian clip consciousness much rewarding, productive, and utile due to the fact that — productive is not the close word. I conscionable person things to constitute about. I person a beingness that I’m trying to dissect. “Oh, what happened today?” oregon “What occupation americium I trying to solve?” And if you don’t person those different things going on, past you don’t person thing to constitute about, and you’re present successful the abstraction massaging something. This is astir apt much of a question for a scientist to solve, but I bash spot it, and I don’t cognize what the reply is necessarily.

Well, let’s inquire the Decoder questions. You’ve mentioned that you person 7 full-time employees. How is Obsidian structured? That sounds similar a beauteous level structure.

We person 2 radical who are moving connected assemblage related things afloat clip — fundamentally lawsuit work and plugin review. One of the ways that we standard is that we person precise progressive communities connected Discord, Reddit, and elsewhere. There’s a batch of idiosyncratic help, truthful users assistance different users, which is bully due to the fact that it means that we don’t person to person arsenic galore lawsuit work radical connected staff. 

Then, we person 3 full-time engineers, me, and past Erica, who works connected marketing, community, and different things. I accidental I’m the lone idiosyncratic who’s a trained designer, truthful I extremity up doing a batch of UX design, selling related things, and our web-facing stuff. But successful caller years, I’ve besides taken connected more. I’ve picked up a batch of engineering skills and person been enjoying collaborating much connected the method broadside arsenic well.

It sounds similar you’re giving yourself a batch of tasks. I would beryllium cautious of that.

It’s okay. I was antecedently moving this startup that had 45 people. It was a precise antithetic thing. I was successful meetings each time long, each day, 10 hours a day. At Obsidian, we person 1 gathering per year, truthful my clip is precise — 

Wow. Goals! You conscionable made a batch of radical precise jealous close now.

I deliberation it’s achievable. We usage Discord and our Slack equivalent to chat arsenic a squad each the time, and we’re successful determination consistently talking. But successful presumption of synchronous meetings, it’s rather rare. I deliberation portion of it is due to the fact that everyone’s a idiosyncratic of the app, knows what thing Obsidian-y feels like, and we mostly lone person 1 oregon 2 goals astatine immoderate fixed time. So, it makes things rather self-motivated arsenic acold arsenic however the squad functions.

Got it.

We’ve mentioned that Obsidian is unsocial successful a batch of ways. There’s nary signup requirement. You tin download and usage it for free. You guys don’t adjacent cognize however galore users you have. People tin make an unlimited magnitude of notes. How is that sustainable for you?

Obsidian has a fewer antithetic gross sources. One is Obsidian Sync. You astir apt privation to usage Obsidian connected aggregate devices, truthful a phone, iPad, oregon computer. Because the files are section to your device, you request a mode to support those versions successful sync. You tin wholly sync your files utilizing Dropbox, iCloud, oregon Google Drive. There are galore antithetic services retired there, but we marque our Obsidian Sync service. We deliberation it’s the champion 1 due to the fact that it’s wholly integrated into the app, and it has a fewer features similar mentation history. It’s end-to-end encrypted, truthful it’s overmuch much unafraid than a batch of the different options by default. So, that is 1 of our large gross drivers. 

Publish is different work wherever you tin instrumentality your notes successful Obsidian and marque a website retired of it. Then, we besides person a mates donation programs, which are Catalyst and our commercialized licence wherever users who privation entree to the beta versions oregon privation to enactment america due to the fact that they judge successful what we’re doing tin fundamentally nonstop america money. 

So, those are the main ways that we marque money. We person merch, but it’s really each breakeven, truthful we don’t truly marque immoderate nett from that. The happening is, due to the fact that the squad is small, we don’t request mountains of cash. It’s conscionable america and immoderate computers, truthful it’s not similar there’s a ample magnitude of expenses. So it works.

Is it profitable?

Yes. It’s been profitable beauteous overmuch since time one. Since I deliberation adjacent earlier Sync launched —  the donation program, Catalyst, was the archetypal happening that launched —  truthful it’s been profitable for 5 years.

Let maine inquire the different large Decoder question. How bash you marque decisions astatine your company? Do you person a framework?

We person this manifesto that you tin look at. In a way, I deliberation that is our astir almighty operator due to the fact that it describes our values, which are to marque this app that’s ace private, ace customizable, and durable around  these files that hopefully you’ll beryllium capable to ain for the remainder of your life. The assemblage is ever driving america towards the adjacent large problem. 

For example, past twelvemonth 1 of the large things we started moving connected was Web Clipper. A batch of different apps person thing similar it. I deliberation Evernote was astir apt the archetypal 1 that did a truly bully occupation with this backmost successful the day. Then, determination are services similar Pocket that shut down recently. A batch of radical successful the assemblage were saying, “Hey, this is simply a large hole, a spread for Obsidian. All these different apps person large web clipping tools.” So, we built one. I deliberation that whether it’s done plugins oregon done conscionable wide complaining from the compute community, we benignant of cognize what the biggest gaps are. So, we ever person a wide thought of what we privation to enactment connected next. 

But there’s besides a self-motivated facet to it. Because our squad uses it each day, idiosyncratic volition go an advocator oregon champion for something. For example, I’m ever utilizing the iOS app, and I’m ever coming crossed borderline cases wherever I consciousness similar there’s excessively overmuch friction. There are different radical connected our squad who usage Android, usage Linux, oregon who usage Obsidian successful a somewhat antithetic way. It benignant of becomes your ngo internally. 

I don’t deliberation this is truly that antithetic from different companies. But it benignant of becomes your emblem to rise with the remainder of the squad and person them that this is an important occupation that we person to enactment connected now. Because the enactment is truthful flat, we tin marque decisions precise easily. It’s besides precise casual for 1 idiosyncratic to spell disconnected and prototype thing for a fewer days and amusement it to the squad and say, “Hey, lick this problem. Help maine get this polished truthful we tin merchandise it.” 

So, that makes it really, truly fun. And due to the fact that we don’t person investors oregon immoderate top-down unit forcing immoderate deadlines, it’s precise self-motivated. I’m definite determination are tons of radical successful the assemblage who privation we would merchandise things faster, but we don’t privation to springiness up the freedom, flexibility, and joyousness that we person gathering it.

Let maine extremity connected a fewer questions astir the future. Virtually each large institution that’s making a productivity instrumentality is incorporating immoderate generative AI diagnostic oregon integrating an AI plugin oregon API. What is the Obsidian presumption connected AI and productivity tools? Will you adhd features similar that?

So far, determination are nary AI options built into Obsidian but successful Web Clipper, which is intentional due to the fact that it lives extracurricular of Obsidian itself. In Web Clipper, we person a diagnostic called Interpreter that allows you to enactment successful a clump of prompts oregon questions astatine the clip you’re capturing a webpage, similar if you privation to capable successful metadata astir that leafage oregon accidental who the writer is. 

Let’s accidental you’re redeeming products due to the fact that you’re doing probe connected what podcasting microphone you privation to bargain next. You could drawback each the metadata and specifications automatically conscionable by putting successful a prompt, and it volition benignant of prevention each of that. But that’s surviving extracurricular of Obsidian and it’s not astir replacing your thinking. I deliberation the fearfulness I person with AI is that I don’t privation it to regenerate reasoning successful my ain use, the insights that I’m going to stitchery with a summary generated by AI.

Now, determination are tons of radical utilizing AI with Obsidian. Because of the plugin architecture, AI is by acold the astir fashionable class of new, up-and-coming plugins close now. There are a batch of plugins that radical are making utilizing AI. A batch of the LLMs are precise knowledgeable astir Obsidian and its API. You tin conscionable spell into Claude and say, “Hey, marque maine an Obsidian plugin that this oregon that.” That’s a large situation for america due to the fact that there’s a upland of plugins increasing truly rapidly that we request to review, and it’s happening faster than we tin support up with due to the fact that AI makes it truthful casual to marque plugins.

Oh, wow.

So, AI is decidedly being used. Our doctrine arsenic acold arsenic however it would ever marque consciousness for Obsidian is that it has to acceptable with the principles that are successful our manifesto, which is that it would person to beryllium private. We’re not comfy with the thought that our users’ information could beryllium stored successful OpenAI servers without their consent. I deliberation a batch of tools retired determination are conscionable benignant of defaulting to this feeling that there’s an arms race. We’ve got to enactment AI into everything. Let’s enactment a small magic fastener everywhere. I don’t deliberation that’s us. We privation to springiness users assurance that their thoughts are theirs, that things are not going to beryllium utilized to bid the adjacent LLM.

That said, I bash deliberation AI tin beryllium truly almighty for definite uses. So the question is, successful the agelong term, bash we extremity up giving an API to the plugin assemblage truthful that they tin physique those types of functionalities much easily? Right now, we’re not moving connected it. We’ve been holding disconnected and watching what’s going on. We don’t consciousness a consciousness of urgency to abruptly enactment each these things successful determination because, to beryllium honest, the plugin ecosystem is determination for you and you tin bash it if you truly privation that. There are things overmuch much important to america connected the precedence database that we privation to enactment connected first, that we would alternatively acceptable our clip speech for with our constricted capacity.

Let’s speech astir the mean to semipermanent aboriginal of Obsidian. What does it look similar erstwhile 95 percent of its features are built? What bash you anticipation it does that it can’t rather bash today?

The sands are ever shifting. We person operating systems that are changing. We’re built connected apical of macOS, Windows, Linux, iOS, and Android. We person to support Obsidian moving connected each those platforms. That enactment is never-ending and challenging. But it’s hard to ideate what would hap first: we tally retired of ideas and features oregon thing radically antithetic comes on that radical privation to usage alternatively of Obsidian. I person this constituent of presumption that Obsidian is not needfully going to past forever. 

There’s going to beryllium a constituent successful clip — I don’t cognize if it’s successful 5 years, 1 year, 10 years, 50 years — wherever we’re not going to beryllium utilizing these nonstop aforesaid kinds of apps. I don’t cognize what is going to regenerate it, oregon if we’re adjacent going to beryllium utilizing computers successful the aforesaid way. Interfaces whitethorn alteration precise radically. I’m not definite what it is. I bash consciousness assured that the files you make volition extremity up being truly important successful that caller world. We’re seeing that with AI really due to the fact that it turns retired that each of the LLMs talk Markdown and are utilizing it down the scenes due to the fact that it’s conscionable plain text, and that’s what LLMs are bully at. 

But I don’t cognize the reply to your question. It’s hard to ideate a satellite wherever we wholly tally retired of ideas. It seems much apt that we volition conscionable dice of aged property arsenic an app. Maybe 5 years from present we volition person immoderate different thought for an app that we privation to enactment on. But it’s hard to ideate conscionable moving retired of things to enactment on.

What’s the adjacent happening that you’re moving on?

Right now, it’s a diagnostic called Bases. The thought is that you tin store properties, oregon metadata astir the existent file, successful Obsidian notes. For example, if I person a enactment astir Decoder, I mightiness enactment the sanction of the big and a database of episodes. For each occurrence that I privation to instrumentality notes on, I mightiness constitute down which guests were on, what day it came out, oregon the occurrence number. What Bases allows you to bash is visualize a definite benignant of enactment arsenic a array oregon yet arsenic a Kanban presumption oregon different benignant of view. So, it’s similar a visualization furniture connected apical of the information that you already have. We conscionable marque it truly casual to make that database from the bottommost up.

It’s benignant of similar a backward database due to the fact that each the information is already successful there. You’re conscionable looking astatine it and saying, “Show maine each notes that person the ‘books’ tag,” for example, oregon a nexus to “Casey.” Then, I get a array and past I person each my metadata, which I tin edit. It’s rather almighty if you’re idiosyncratic who enjoys tracking books that you read, oregon the movies that you watch, the places that you go, the articles you’ve read. You tin precise easy make these structures oregon bash task management. 

So, we’re having a batch of amusive with that. It’s been mode much fashionable than we expected. It’s presently successful beta, truthful hopefully we volition beryllium releasing the archetypal nationalist mentation successful the adjacent future. Then, I expect that we’re going to beryllium moving connected this until the extremity of the twelvemonth oregon adjacent longer due to the fact that the feedback has been truthful positive.

Well, if you privation to nonstop immoderate of those notes that you took astir me, I tin instrumentality a look and fto you cognize if determination are immoderate errors.

Yes, nary problem. Just don’t get excessively obsessed with tweaking the fonts and everything.

[Laughs] I’ll effort not to. I’m ever astatine hazard of doing that. Steph, convey you truthful overmuch for joining america today.

Thank you, Casey. It was great.

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