Why tech billionaires want a ‘corporate dictatorship’

Hello, and invited to Decoder! This is Jon Fortt, CNBC journalist, cohost of Closing Bell: Overtime, and creator of the Fortt Knox streaming bid connected LinkedIn. I’m guest-hosting for a mates much episodes of Decoder this summertime portion Nilay is retired connected parental leave.  

Today, I’m talking with a precise peculiar guest: Gil Duran, an aged friend, journalist, and writer of The Nerd Reich, a newsletter and forthcoming book astir the shifting authorities of Silicon Valley and the rise of tech authoritarianism.

I’ve known Gil for a agelong time. We met astatine the extremity of precocious schoolhouse and went to assemblage together, and we were besides colleagues astatine the San Jose Mercury News. Gil has had a fascinating vocation that spans some media and politics: he’s worked arsenic property caput and comms manager for high-profile California politicians similar Gov. Jerry Brown and Sen. Dianne Feinstein, and helium besides advised Kamala Harris erstwhile she served arsenic California’s lawyer general. 

Now, penning The Nerd Reich, Gil is focused connected a caller benignant of story, 1 helium says has gone woefully under-covered by mainstream media. That communicative is the power of tech wealth connected authorities and nine astatine large, and the disturbing philosophical undercurrents that are driving it. 

The “Nerd Reich,” arsenic Gil sees it, is simply a web of powerful, ultrawealthy tech billionaires. People similar Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, Marc Andreessen, and others, whose authorities and power present spot them pushing the state further and further distant from ideology and toward thing resembling a benignant of cross betwixt unrestrained capitalism and monarchy. 

This thought has been kicking astir for rather a portion now. You’ll perceive Gil notation to it arsenic the Dark Enlightenment, oregon arsenic immoderate notation to it, the neo-reactionary movement. Some cardinal characters present include Curtis Yarvin — an influential, anti-democracy blogger whose ideas erstwhile stood acold extracurricular mainstream acceptability, but who precocious has captured the attraction of politicians similar Vice President JD Vance. 

And that’s Gil’s cardinal thesis: portion these ideas are not new, their clasp by immoderate of the wealthiest and astir almighty radical connected the satellite is simply a comparatively caller improvement — 1 that’s been supercharged by President Donald Trump’s reelection. 

Now that these ideas person entered the White House by mode of the MAGA movement, Gil argues that it has created a unsafe conjugation betwixt the acold close and the stewards of the biggest, astir fashionable tech platforms and products. After all, arsenic we’ve seen with Elon Musk and DOGE, these tech billionaires aren’t conscionable sitting successful the shadows; they privation to teardrop down and rebuild the authorities from the crushed up.

Gil is 1 of the sharpest thinkers connected this subject, and helium ne'er shies distant from saying what helium truly thinks. So I deliberation you’ll find this speech precise illuminating; I cognize I did. 

Okay: The Nerd Reich writer Gil Duran. Here we go.

This interrogation has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity. 

Gil Duran, large to person you present connected Decoder.

Thanks for having me.

Well, we’re going to speech astir The Nerd Reich, of course, due to the fact that that’s what you write, what you podcast, and what you do. But first, a disclosure: You and I archetypal met 31 years agone arsenic precocious schoolhouse seniors. We received the aforesaid journalism scholarship, went to the aforesaid college, and we’re friends. 

We started our journalism careers. You focused much connected culture, government, and politics. I focused much connected concern and tech. You’ve gone connected to a superb and wide-ranging career. You’ve tally communications for a who’s who of California politics: Jerry Brown, Kamala Harris, Antonio Villaraigosa, Dianne Feinstein. 

But that’s a spot of a past beingness for you. At this moment, our worlds collide. The authorities and civilization stuff, and the concern and tech stuff. So, what is the Nerd Reich?

The Nerd Reich is simply a word that immoderate radical usage to picture a cultish radical of tech billionaires who fundamentally question to regenerate ideology with thing resembling firm dictatorship. Some radical telephone this question the Dark Enlightenment, the neo-reactionary movement, oregon the web state. 

It’s backed by a fistful of CEOs and billionaires: radical similar task capitalist Marc Andreessen and Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong, with engagement from radical similar OpenAI CEO Sam Altman, and the granddaddy of them all, Peter Thiel, who’s been promoting immoderate of these ideas for decades.

What’s incorrect with it?

Well, I accidental it’s inherently anti-American. It sees a post-United States satellite where, alternatively of democracy, we volition person fundamentally tech feudalism — fiefdoms tally by tech corporations. They’re beauteous explicit astir this point. You and I did Poli Sci 101 unneurotic astatine DePaul. I would accidental that determination is simply a speech successful academia astir the semipermanent wellness of the federation authorities successful the 21st century, and these guys are tapping into that and proposing a merchandise oregon a exemplary that volition enactment them astatine the ultimate caput of satellite authorities successful the future.

But I deliberation earlier we spell astir trying to alteration the federation oregon alteration the federation state, we should astir apt sermon that thought with the American people. So, successful a nutshell, you person a radical of super-rich elites with a precise apocalyptic imaginativeness of wherever nine and the satellite are headed, and they are rushing up with what they deliberation is the solution, a solution that, by the way, volition besides enactment a crown connected their heads.

This reminds maine of immoderate themes from a publication I work successful precocious school, by writer Ayn Rand, called The Fountainhead, and I deliberation you and I might’ve talked astir this during freshman twelvemonth successful assemblage arsenic well. It’s besides successful enactment with different Rand book, Atlas Shrugged. 

It’s precise convincing erstwhile you’re speechmaking it arsenic a teen and possibly besides arsenic a billionaire, this thought that, “Hey, determination are immoderate radical retired determination who are conscionable much productive arsenic capitalists, and capitalism is good. It’s the lifeblood of society, and these are the radical we request to beryllium moving things, not these altruistic, mealy-mouthed, progressive radical who are conscionable watering everything down and making everything mediocre.”

It’s decidedly an ideology of tech supremacy. This thought that if you person billions of dollars and you’ve created immoderate tech merchandise that’s valuable, that makes you bully astatine everything. I deliberation there’s an aged Yiddish saying, “If you’re rich, you’re besides handsome and you tin sing.” So, it’s this thought that due to the fact that you’re rich, you tin present bash everything. We spot this Dunning-Kruger attack with everyone from Elon Musk to Jeff Bezos going into businesses wherever they person nary acquisition and making a messiness of things. So, they’re trying to bash that basal thought with governance. 

You’re right, a batch of radical hint this backmost to ideas similar Galt’s Gulch [in Atlas Shrugged]. It’s an thought we find passim subject fiction, with enclaves of tech elites controlling everything. Usually, they’re the atrocious guys. For the beingness of me, I can’t recognize wherefore these guys person decided to overtly beryllium the atrocious guys successful subject fiction. 

But these are ideas that truly illness nether the value of world due to the fact that governing and getting the consent of the governed is simply a long-standing humanities problem. The champion we’ve gotten successful our thousands of years is figuring retired thing similar the ideology we person close present and the thought that we’re conscionable going to regenerate it with these firm fiefdoms… there’s a batch they haven’t thought through, and it becomes precise evident the infinitesimal you commencement probing beneath the surface.

Now, 1 of the starring thinkers connected the tech billionaire broadside of this is simply a feline named Curtis Yarvin. He precocious had a statement astatine Harvard, and helium seems to person done beauteous well. How would you framework however Yarvin approaches these things?

Yarvin is simply a machine programmer and a pseudo-intellectual who, successful the aboriginal 2000s, started inventing his ain mentation of politics, mostly catering to the thought that alternatively of a democracy, we request a dictatorship. That we’d beryllium amended disconnected with a monarchy and going into large item astir however to make this caller system, which progressive breaking up the federation authorities into smaller territories, helium called patchworks, which would past beryllium governed by totalitarian corporations. For example, helium envisioned a San Francisco successful the aboriginal that would beryllium called Frisk Corp, tally by a corp called Frisk Corp, wherever everybody would beryllium nether changeless and full surveillance adjacent successful the privateness of their ain homes.

This is what would guarantee your security, and you’d request to swipe successful and swipe retired to get successful oregon retired of the city. The authorities of the metropolis would person full powerfulness implicit you. They could termination you if you want. You’d person nary rights. The lone happening you’d beryllium capable to bash is to leave, to ballot with your feet, which is underestimating however authoritarian governments work. Because if everybody could conscionable leave, radical would conscionable permission North Korea, China, each these countries. They don’t bash that for a crushed — due to the fact that they’re not allowed to.

Or possibly it’s Singapore.

Well, that’s 1 thought it’s become. So, a fewer years later, Balaji Srinivasan, who’s the erstwhile CTO of Coinbase and a erstwhile Andreessen Horowitz spouse and a person of some Yarvin and Peter Thiel, and that’s an important part… Peter Thiel has a longstanding relation with Yarvin, funded his institution for years, and has named him successful conversations arsenic an inspiration. He’s considered Peter Thiel’s location philosopher.

Well, Srinivasan sees that the relation with Yarvin makes it creepy due to the fact that helium has immoderate weird ideas astir what we bash with mediocre people, and a batch of genocidal connection occurs done the writings of Yarvin. So, Balaji Srinivasan tries to update it to thing called The Network State and puts retired this full publication wherever helium fundamentally tries to rebrand it arsenic a firm harmless idea. We person to commencement reasoning astir sovereignty, but helium besides has immoderate beauteous nutty ideas astir however that would look.

So I conjecture if I were to instrumentality the different side, which I person to bash to support it interesting, 1 could accidental that Yarvin’s ideas aren’t truthful acold from, say, Alexander Hamilton’s? And the dynamic betwixt Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson was a steadfast dynamic successful the enactment of American ideas. 

Hamilton was accused of being a monarchist. He was beauteous intelligibly successful favour of astute and affluent radical having a batch much powerfulness and accidental implicit however things went than everybody else. Thomas Jefferson, contempt his galore contradictions and hypocrisies, was the antheral of the people, the pro-democracy guy.

Well, I deliberation Yarvin would similar that comparison. I don’t deliberation helium deserves it. You’ve fundamentally got a failed startup laminitis — his merchandise has ne'er truly done what it was expected to do. If you can’t make that world, however tin you woody with the remainder of it? I’ve really been successful authorities astatine City Hall, successful the authorities superior successful Sacramento. There are immoderate hard decisions, immoderate analyzable issues, that don’t lend themselves to this simplistic reasoning of a clump of guys who walk each their lives with their necks craned implicit their computers successful the code. That’s what they conscionable don’t get. That’s the missing constituent of their ideas. 

Yarvin is not a PhD successful anything, successful history. If you speech to governmental scientists and historians arsenic I person been doing, due to the fact that I’m penning a publication connected this subject, it’s astir an insult to bring up his ideas to them due to the fact that they marque nary sense, and they instantly spell heavy into each the philosophers, thinkers, and historians who person debunked the basal ideas here. 

So, they’re operating astatine a basal level, astir similar precocious schoolers arguing, oregon america possibly freshman twelvemonth arguing implicit Galt’s Gulch. Or retrieve we had immoderate weird debates implicit worldly that neither of america truly knew about, but we were truly going to beryllium close astir it. That’s what they’re doing, but they’re grown men. The occupation is erstwhile you get these billionaires who possibly haven’t matured arsenic accelerated arsenic their finances have, they deliberation these are large ideas, and they propulsion them, and past unfortunately, the remainder of america person to woody with them.

At the basal of it, we’re astatine a clip wherever the broader public, astatine slightest large segments of the broader public, look to person mislaid religion successful the ideas of expertise and of institutions. So, you accidental helium doesn’t person a PhD. There are a batch of radical who are like, “Yay, nary PhD. He didn’t get a PhD successful this from Harvard. Boo, Harvard.” 

What’s going connected with possibly the framing of the American promise, wherever we’re present successful a clip erstwhile radical are lionizing those who person made a batch of wealth implicit those who person gained cognition oregon acquisition successful a fixed area? It seems similar the effect of immoderate failed promise.

Well, definitely. We person a media that mostly glamorizes the affluent and makes them look similar they’re amended than everybody else. I deliberation we’ve got a longstanding civilization successful which wealthiness is seen arsenic impervious that you’re better, that you’re much hardworking, that you’re morally superior. So, there’s a batch flowing toward that. 

I mean, our president of the United States is simply a feline who played the stereotype of a affluent feline connected TV successful the ’80s and the ’90s, right? Donald Trump has ever been determination with this gold-plated, kitschy representation that helium projects. But I deliberation it’s starting to autumn abbreviated successful immoderate ways. I deliberation erstwhile the effects of these tariffs hit, Trump’s canvass numbers started sinking, and radical are learning successful their ain ways that large wealthiness doesn’t adjacent wisdom, and it doesn’t adjacent leadership.

Trump has been capable to get beauteous acold connected an illusion, but there’s lone 1 Donald Trump. Whether you emotion him oregon hatred him, there’s nary denying that he’s had a longstanding charismatic narration with the American people. You don’t get that with Elon Musk. You don’t get that with Peter Thiel, who tin barely choke retired a condemnation that’s comprehensible. You surely don’t get that with Curtis Yarvin. If I had a large budget, I would decidedly enactment ads targeting MAGA, showing them the worldly these guys are saying, the worldly these guys are talking about, due to the fact that these guys person thing successful communal with your reddish hat-wearing Republican. They look down connected those people, too. 

Unfortunately, the lone idiosyncratic making this constituent is idiosyncratic I besides despise politically, Steve Bannon. He has been telling radical astir this worldly — astir transhumanism and the web authorities and each these weird ideas that they program to enforce connected people. So, I deliberation the bigger occupation is that we haven’t truly had a treatment astir immoderate of this worldly because, largely, there’s been a media blackout connected it. I deliberation editors deliberation it’s excessively weird oregon esoteric. 

Now, it’s being shoved successful our look much and much with each passing month, and we’re mode past the constituent of being capable to disregard it. I mean, I’m amazed The New Yorker covered this earlier The New York Times or The Washington Post. I was penning worldly past twelvemonth that they’re conscionable getting astir to now, and judge me, arsenic blessed arsenic I americium to beryllium a freelance writer who recovered an important story, I shouldn’t person been the feline talking astir this past year. Last twelvemonth was erstwhile the American radical deserved to cognize astir this stuff.

I deliberation we mightiness beryllium successful a spot wherever definite publications are trying not to look weird and, successful the process, possibly not covering definite things. But Yarvin would assertion — arsenic a substance of fact, not would, helium does — that the FDR presidency is the exemplary for what America needs now, right? He talks astir the magnitude of powerfulness that FDR concentrated. FDR, coming retired of the Gilded Age, had a batch of powerfulness and made a batch of decisions that 1 would easy reason were important. Is that wrong?

Well, helium mischaracterizes FDR arsenic a monarch oregon a dictator, which is not existent due to the fact that FDR was elected. FDR was beloved, and aft FDR left, idiosyncratic other took his spot who was not a subordinate of his family. After that, a fewer years later, idiosyncratic from the other enactment was successful charge. So, that’s however the American authorities works. 

But here’s the hint for wherefore Yarvin is obsessed with FDR. FDR was an exigency wartime president. He was president during the Great Depression and WWII, a clip of large crisis. Because of that crisis, helium was fixed much powerfulness to marque things hap rapidly successful defence of the nation. And present we spot what? Donald Trump trying to state emergencies everyplace successful bid to get much power, without having to spell done Congress, and without having to spell done the accustomed checks and balances. So, I truly deliberation the cardinal determination is to recognize the grade to which they spot the usage of exigency powers arsenic the easiest mode to grow the powerfulness of the executives.

I wrote a portion astatine The Nerd Reich astir a startup present successful California that is proposing that Donald Trump state a nationalist information exigency to let them to physique a small web authorities tech hub connected the land of Alameda, connected a erstwhile naval basal wherever determination hap to beryllium endangered migratory vertebrate habitats. Everywhere we look, adjacent this ridiculous illustration today, we’re seeing this tendency for an emergency, which is simply a mode to drawback power. So, I deliberation that’s the cardinal to knowing Yarvin’s slanderous obsession with FDR: the exigency powers helium was granted. 

That thought of an exigency is, I think, a thread passim law, right? But emergencies are hard to define. The 1 caller illustration is the concern successful LA astir these protests. Were they mostly peaceful protests? Or were they riots and insurrections? It conscionable depends connected whose societal media provender you’re looking at, oregon what quality transmission you hap to ticker the most, and however that gets framed. So, an emergency, successful a way, is successful the oculus of the beholder and successful the discourse of wherever the beholder thinks the country’s heading.

Well, I conjecture to immoderate degree, erstwhile you look astatine antithetic feeds, you’re seeing antithetic things. But successful California, erstwhile there’s an emergency, the politician has the powerfulness to act. The large happening with LA was that the politician and the politician some made it wide that they had the concern nether control. The LAPD and the LA Sheriff’s Department were handling the situation. If idiosyncratic needs to telephone connected the National Guard, that’s the governor’s job. The politician called successful the National Guard backmost successful 2020 erstwhile determination were respective days of demolition and unit successful Sacramento. So, this was Trump seizing connected the cognition created by Fox News and Elon Musk’s X to insert himself arsenic the leader of an exigency that conscionable didn’t exist.

Yes, determination were protests. Yes, a tiny information of them had immoderate spot demolition and vandalism, but nary 1 progressive successful the concern needed Donald Trump to interfere. He politicized the concern and inserted himself, and what helium did really was effort to make a situation due to the fact that helium knew that would make much of a backlash from radical successful California. More than thing close now, Donald Trump wants confrontation. So, similar with Silicon Valley, they’re ever crying astir a situation that they’re really rushing to make astatine the aforesaid time. AGI volition termination america all, let’s unreserved to make it. This is similar a unusual mentality, but lone we tin lick the exigency that we make is what seems to beryllium the logic they use there.

Another happening I find absorbing astir the FDR statement that Yarvin makes is that FDR started societal information nets, large authorities expansion, monolithic economical stimulus, and labour rights support. He arguably laid the groundwork for the Great Society. That doesn’t dependable similar what this assemblage wants to repeat.

No, they privation to usage the powers of a dictatorship to spell successful the other direction. A batch of this is astir pulling retired of the societal contract, and a batch of these ideas tin beryllium traced backmost to a 1997 publication called The Sovereign Individual, which predicted that successful the 21st century, the coming accusation property would destruct astir jobs and that this would pb to unit and chaos and societal degradation arsenic radical nary longer had wealth and could nary longer spend anything. But a caller exertion called cybercurrency would let a definite cognitive elite, radical who tin go affluent disconnected of this caller accusation age, to emergence successful powerfulness and make their ain small fortress societies wherever they would beryllium harmless arsenic everything fell isolated extracurricular of the walls.

We person a clump of CEOs telling america that AI is going to get escaped of millions and millions of jobs. Well, what’s going to hap to those radical who tin nary longer work? What is their future? What is the aboriginal of their children? They say, “Well, AI volition make different jobs.” Well, what I’m proceeding is that AI volition conscionable continuously amended and instrumentality distant the jobs it creates. There’s this happening that doesn’t rather adhd up, and immoderate of them speech astir cosmopolitan basal income and everyone getting a stock of the profits. Well, that sounds a batch similar Silicon Valley socialism.

What does state look similar successful Sam Altman’s cosmopolitan basal income universe? What does ideology look similar erstwhile you don’t get to devour unless idiosyncratic similar Elon Musk is approving of your existence? There’s a question determination that these guys hint at, but ne'er answer. I deliberation that’s a spot wherever you person to spell successful politics. We person to speech astir what the aboriginal looks similar if they’re going to termination each jobs.

So what’s the solution then? Because abbreviated of regulating AI retired of existence… If so we are heading toward [artificial wide intelligence], and this ace astute bundle that eliminates a clump of jobs — and precise often that isn’t what ends up happening — it seems similar we were having this aforesaid speech 20 oregon 25 years agone astir the internet. 

In short, the net did destruct encyclopedia salesman jobs, but radical are inactive indispensable successful the loop. I mean, arsenic the US someway tries to halt the improvement of this exertion elsewhere, determination are exertion companies and astute radical astatine these companies who are going to proceed moving connected it.

Well, I deliberation you request a astute attack to regulation. Unfortunately, what we person present is an effort to prohibition each regularisation due to the fact that these guys person captured the White House with Trump. I deliberation that it’s hard to separate betwixt the hype of [artificial wide intelligence] and the precise existent harms of AI, which volition travel successful a simpler form: the bias we already spot coming retired of these companies successful their algorithms and the mode it’ll beryllium utilized to exacerbate existing deficiencies successful our society. I deliberation the bigger occupation is that we’re learning that if you springiness radical excessively overmuch money, they spell crazy.

Some of them spell brainsick and determine they privation to extremity ideology and overthrow the United States of America and unrecorded successful immoderate dystopian subject fabrication phantasy world. When you person that overmuch money, you don’t conscionable speech astir it, you instrumentality steps to marque it happen. How we woody with that occupation is simply a precise superior question that I don’t deliberation anybody successful politics, Democrat oregon Republican, wants to reply due to the fact that they’re truthful babelike connected these radical for run contributions. We request idiosyncratic similar FDR to beryllium a traitor to his people and emergence up and find a mode to enactment these billionaires backmost successful their place.

Well, to spell backmost to the FDR thought here, what if this is portion of the earthy bushed of the American climate? That erstwhile things spell excessively utmost successful 1 direction, you had the robber barons and each of that, the roaring ’20s and their extremes, determination needs to beryllium oregon ends up being immoderate consolidation of powerfulness connected the different broadside that swings the pendulum back. Not that those ideas are right, not that everything FDR did was wholly sustainable, oregon the mode that helium framed it. 

But what if it was conscionable indispensable due to the fact that of the excesses of the affluent that built up connected that side, and present what these guys and their brainsick ideas correspond is simply a pendulum plaything successful the different direction?

I deliberation that’s plausible. I deliberation studying these guys, 1 happening that I find frightening is that they person studied those periods of history. They recognize what happened successful the Gilded Age. Balaji Srinivasan name-checks Ida Tarbell arsenic a large enemy. He’s inactive huffy astir what she did to Standard Oil, and she’s been dormant since 1944. So, I deliberation they’re looking for a mode to extremity the game. They person capable wealthiness accruing present wherever we person robber barons who are richer than possibly astatine immoderate different constituent successful history, each these guys with infinite money, and present they’re creating their ain forms of money.

So, I deliberation they’re looking for a mode to extremity the game, and that’s wherefore they’re teamed up with MAGA, due to the fact that here’s a president who’s consenting to merchantability to the highest bidder and who’s wholly investigating the law, the constitution, and the limitations connected enforcement power. I person nary uncertainty that if Donald Trump time declared himself the imperishable person of the United States and said ideology is over, that we would person applause and soundlessness from astir each of Silicon Valley.

That’s a antithetic look than Silicon Valley elite executives displayed 25 years agone erstwhile you and I were beauteous caller retired of schoolhouse and heading implicit there. I mean, is this what we’re seeing, the enlargement of Atherton? 

For radical who aren’t acquainted with the Bay Area, Atherton is extracurricular of Palo Alto. A batch of CEOs and task capitalists unrecorded there, and it’s the weirdest spot successful the Bay Area I’ve ever been due to the fact that you spell determination and determination are these streets and hedges that are 15 feet tall. You tin hardly spot immoderate houses. In immoderate areas, you can’t spot immoderate houses astatine each due to the fact that that’s the idea. You’re not expected to spot anybody’s house, but super-rich radical unrecorded there. If they invitation you and they unfastened the gross down the hedges, you tin spell in. They’re sending their kids to backstage schools. They’re successful these houses that you can’t see. They’re surviving precise affluent lives, and you spot mostly pickup trucks from radical who are coming to work the properties connected the streets. 

That thought seems to person expanded successful caller years, adjacent beyond Atherton, wherever 25 years agone — and not to lionize this feline — but Steve Jobs was surviving successful Palo Alto, sending his kids to nationalist school, and section families trick-or-treated astatine his house. It’s precise antithetic from the Atherton mindset that seems to person expanded lately.

Definitely. I deliberation we’ve had a bid of crises successful our nine that person radicalized immoderate of these guys, arsenic has the tremendous enlargement of wealthiness done things similar crypto successful caller years. Plus, we’ve had a societal media hit. So, you had the fiscal situation successful 2008, which showed radical that everything’s overmuch shakier than we thought. We had the emergence of societal media and a societal media president, Donald Trump, who wholly disrupted politics. We had the MeToo Movement, which led to a batch much nationalist consciousness and sensitivity astir definite structures of oppression. That pissed disconnected a batch of radical who felt beauteous almighty and affluent and without problems earlier that.

Then we had the pandemic, which wholly made america each enactment unneurotic for a portion and created immoderate divisions implicit things similar vaccines and nationalist wellness information measures. So, I deliberation we’ve lived done a play wherever our tech CEOs and billionaires nary longer consciousness comfy conscionable being a portion of the strategy and trying to find a mode to enactment wrong it. They’ve decided that everything is ripe for disruption, including the United States of America, including wide democracy, and that it is their destiny to overthrow it oregon alteration it and make a strategy that answers to them. I deliberation that’s what the occupation is.

I bash retrieve that 20 years ago, surviving successful San Francisco, immoderate radical who had been determination a portion were truly disdainful of the techies and saw them arsenic a threat, arsenic this happening that was going to bring atrocious ideas and alteration to the town. I thought they were exaggerating. I didn’t deliberation it was that bad. It turns out, actually, it is that bad.

Well, interesting. Let’s sojourn that for a infinitesimal due to the fact that the nationalist fashionable representation of San Francisco is simply a spot wherever needles are being passed retired and stateless encampments are spreading passim the city. There’s small attraction to the existent mechanics of day-to-day life. 

At the aforesaid time, the mode I’ve experienced San Francisco implicit the past 20-plus years is that there’s been this tremendous concern successful bureau abstraction and successful the downtown to the exclusion of the livability of existent individuals’ families. It was to the constituent wherever erstwhile the pandemic deed and companies unopen down, we went to enactment from home, and San Francisco became a shade municipality due to the fact that determination had been truthful overmuch accent placed connected bureau abstraction versus radical really surviving there. What bash you deliberation is the information of what San Francisco is now, what it has become, and who it’s serving?

Well, San Francisco is the champion and astir beauteous metropolis successful the United States. I mean, it’s an astonishing place. There are each kinds of things happening, and determination are areas of municipality that are bad. If you didn’t turn up successful the United States, you whitethorn not cognize that there’s ever a atrocious portion of municipality successful this state due to the fact that determination are mediocre people. When you thin to enactment them each successful 1 vicinity — and I grew up successful a mediocre neighborhood, truthful I cognize – but if you spell to my hometown, Tulare, there’s a bully portion wherever radical person swimming pools and large lawns. And there’s the portion I’m from, which is not a spot you privation to spell hanging astir astatine night. So, that’s normal.

This is simply a fewer blocks successful San Francisco wherever the homelessness and unfastened cause addiction person gotten retired of hand, and that’s a occupation that needs to beryllium dealt with, hopefully successful a rational, evidence-based way. But what’s happened is that there’s been this Fox News-driven slander run to marque it look similar that’s each of San Francisco, erstwhile you tin locomotion 3 blocks from the epicenter of this portion and get similar a $20 Japanese-style cocktail, right? It’s truly the haves and the have-nots. It’s a communicative of 2 cities, and astir of the metropolis is expensive, beautiful, wonderful, glorious, afloat of civilization and food, et cetera. So, that portion of the communicative is precise fictional, but radical person been priced out. That’s a communicative each crossed California and each crossed galore parts of the nation. 

Wages aren’t keeping up successful a mode that allows radical to proceed to unrecorded successful this country. A caller survey showed that 60 percent of Americans person occupation making ends meet and affording the basics. That’s the occupation we’ve got to solve. So, these tech billionaires ever privation to shriek astir a fewer blocks successful San Francisco wherever there’s fentanyl addiction. Well, conjecture what’s fueling the fentanyl commercialized much than anything? Crypto. So, let’s prohibition crypto arsenic a archetypal measurement toward solving the cause crisis, but they don’t privation to bash that.

So, they truly are bully astatine directing attraction astatine a scapegoat and distant from the halfway problem, which is that we person an expanding fig of billionaires, an expanding fig of radical surviving successful tents, and a nine that is truthful vastly unequal that it is headed toward a illness 1 mode oregon another, but that’ll conscionable mean a reckoning. I deliberation it’s going to beryllium a reckoning with the relation that these billionaires play successful our nine and with the relation that tech and Silicon Valley play successful our society. Downtown San Francisco is bare due to the fact that of Zoom, due to the fact that you tin enactment from location now. I worked successful the fiscal territory for 10 years, and that’s not wherever you spot homelessness and cause addiction. There are a fewer stateless people, but that’s astir a mile away.

The occupation with downtown is that radical tin enactment from location now. So, each the restaurants that were determination for years serving luncheon are gone, and the offices are empty, and it’s dead. But if you spell to the neighborhoods wherever radical are present working, wherever they live, everything’s booming due to the fact that that’s wherever things person moved to. So, we’ve seen this migration retired of bureau space. It turns retired we didn’t request it due to the fact that exertion disrupted it, and radical would alternatively not spell to the bureau each day. The stories marque it look similar the crushed downtown is bare is due to the fact that of the stateless people, and that’s a wholly fabricated disinformation propaganda narrative.

Those are 2 abstracted problems wrong a fewer miles of each other, but the mode they get conflated by galore successful Silicon Valley and by Fox, Newsmax, and by the president of the United States gives radical a mendacious content of what’s happening.

So we mightiness conscionable beryllium successful this modulation period, going backmost to this thought of clime versus weather, wherever the cities were designed for an 1980s oregon 1990s world successful however radical spell passim their day, and besides work, play, and live. But immoderate of the cardinal mechanics of that person changed due to the fact that exertion and radical are going to work, play, and unrecorded differently. That means we’ve got a clump of infrastructure sitting successful assorted places that conscionable isn’t arsenic indispensable arsenic it utilized to be, and past you extremity up with problems erstwhile you’ve got setups similar that.

Definitely. For thousands and thousands of years, quality beings person figured retired a mode to structure themselves. It’s astonishing that we can’t fig retired a mode to supply structure for the radical we person here. Part of the occupation successful downtown San Francisco is that it’s not truthful casual to person each of these bureau buildings into housing. So, it would beryllium costly to person to teardrop them down oregon person them, oregon wholly reconfigure them. There are immoderate bureau buildings that are being reconfigured into housing, but of course, that’s astir apt going to beryllium lodging not for mediocre people, but for wealthier radical who tin spend to unrecorded successful a redone aged bureau building.

I bash deliberation we’re astatine a constituent wherever we person to fig out, with each the technologies we person and each of the aboriginal that we spot close successful our face, wherefore can’t we lick the basal aged problems? Unfortunately, there’s a governmental disconnect determination wherever the radical who accidental they privation to lick these problems lone privation to lick them successful a definite way. Then there’s the governmental disagreement. For instance, there’s this book, Abundance, that came retired and that everybody’s warring astir each the time. Oh, sure, Abundance sounds great. It’s a bully word. We should person abundance. When you get down into details, though, there’s nary rational argumentation you tin suggest wherever everybody’s conscionable going to hold due to the fact that it’s rational. Politics is not based connected rationality.

It’s based connected each of these different factors: emotion, identity, and morality. So, adjacent if we had lodging for everybody, idiosyncratic would entity due to the fact that you person to enactment to get into the housing. Actually, present successful San Francisco, there’s been a question to support radical from getting lodging if they don’t halt doing drugs first. Well, the grounds and the information amusement that you privation to get radical into lodging and not make much barriers, and past effort to get them disconnected of the drugs. But immoderate radical person a motivation artifact against allowing radical to get thing portion they’re doing drugs. It’s wholly unscientific. The information proves conclusively that it’s wrong, but each these tech CEOs present are pro “you person to get the attraction oregon you don’t get the housing.”

Well, if you couldn’t get authorities contracts if you were connected drugs, that would beryllium interesting.

[Laughs] Yeah, well, the rules lone use to immoderate people. Drug tests are for the small people.

Are we successful a concern wherever exertion and ideology are fundamentally astatine odds? Are we successful a fabric gin infinitesimal successful a way? Because with each caller technology, idiosyncratic tries to framework it similar this is the solution to inequality — the integer divide, we’re going to lick that. We didn’t lick the integer divide. As we saw during COVID, kids who had means and were location from schoolhouse really tended to bash amended successful isolation. Kids who were successful adjacent truly high-powered charter school-type programs similar KIPP did acold worse.

It debunked the statement that these charter schoolhouse programs, similar KIPP, are cherry-picking the astir promising kids retired of the interior city. And the crushed wherefore they bash good is due to the fact that they would’ve done good anyway, due to the fact that a batch of those kids truly had a batch of occupation erstwhile they were disconnected from that structured situation and from aggravated attraction from teachers, world preparedness, et cetera. But it’s happening again present with AI. 

So, I truly wonderment if we are successful this march of technological progress, but if exertion and democracy, fairness, and economical accidental are fundamentally astatine odds. Is determination immoderate mode to displacement that equation that you see?

Well, societal justness and economical justness would beryllium considered woke present by this caller procreation of CEOs, and they deliberation they conscionable defeated each of those ideas. Now, we tin spell into a meritocracy aboriginal wherever you lone get things if you tin vie astatine a precise precocious level, according to rules created by these Silicon Valley guys. I deliberation that a large portion of the occupation is who is creating this exertion and who are they creating it for? I don’t needfully bargain the hype connected AGI and AI, but the CEOs are pushing this thought that they’re astir to massively alteration and disrupt the satellite successful a mode that sounds similar it’s going to possibly harm the bulk of radical to payment a tiny fig of people.

Why is that the case? Why are they designing it successful that way? Why aren’t they trying to find ways to make technologies that tin lick the problems we have, alternatively than make new, worse problems? I deliberation a cardinal occupation is that these technologies are present being designed by radical successful the backstage assemblage with thing much than a nett motive. Whereas successful the past, immoderate of the biggest, astir transformative technologies we person travel retired of authorities for the nationalist good, for nationalist security, for immoderate different incentive, to effort to lick the occupation successful a antithetic way. So, I don’t cognize however you tin hole that occupation arsenic agelong arsenic we’re going to fto a fistful of highly affluent megalomaniacs usher the progress.

But you don’t deliberation that the mindset of this fistful of radical who you’ve highlighted arsenic being portion of the Nerd Reich is the ascendant mindset successful Silicon Valley? There seems to beryllium a range. I talked to a batch of radical successful Silicon Valley, a batch of CEOs and founders, and precise fewer of them look to beryllium powerfully aligned with this libertarian objectivist group. Some are like, “Oh, this’ll pass. I didn’t similar the Biden policies. So, possibly this is simply a spot better.” 

Some are actively against the absorption that this administration, this government, is going, but hey, they person a concern to run. So, they’re trying to support their heads down. Isn’t determination the thought that immoderate of these radical really could bash oregon try, oregon enactment thing different?

Well, it depends connected who wins. Silence is complicity, and radical sometimes get mad. They say, “Don’t accidental each tech, don’t accidental each Silicon Valley.” Well, wherever are each the techies successful Silicon Valley, the CEOs, speaking retired against this stuff? Where are the radical lasting up and saying, “You cognize what? I’m going to enactment my wealth against this. This is morally wrong. This is repugnant. We should bash it different way”? Silicon Valley, per capita, I think, has the highest postulation of cowardly CEOs successful the world. They each privation to fell nether a stone and beryllium connected immoderate broadside wins. That’s what I see. I don’t spot 1 truly speaking out.

That’s a predominant disapproval successful this medication of the likes of Jeff Bezos, who owns The Washington Post, and that paper’s slogan, “Democracy dies successful darkness.” Now, I wonder, is that a prophecy, oregon was it a warning? Was it a prediction? He seems to person taken a antithetic slant connected trying not to beryllium successful nonstop absorption to the Trump administration, no?

Well, definitely, helium wants to support each of his authorities contracts, and he’s gutted an editorial committee that would’ve been a large dependable successful a clip similar this for speaking arsenic a conscience of the nation. He has immoderate childish thought that helium tin conscionable beryllium for state and economical markets without those being political. I deliberation Bezos is wholly going for self-interest. Like I said, I deliberation if Trump declared that ideology was over, you wouldn’t perceive a peep from The Washington Post oregon from Jeff Bezos. They conscionable privation to beryllium connected the broadside that’s winning, to bargain a operation from Bob Dylan. That to maine is the scariest portion astir each of it. 

Growing up successful this country, I grew up successful a precise blimpish place. I deliberation erstwhile I was truly young, I had immoderate Republican leanings conscionable due to the fact that of what I was surrounded by. It was a precise patriotic town, and a batch of radical successful my household enlisted successful the subject for nary peculiar reason. It was considered conscionable a happening to do. You service your country. 

It’s astonishing to turn up and to realize, arsenic I caput toward 50, that truthful galore radical conscionable don’t judge successful anything, don’t judge successful this country, and don’t truly attraction what happens to it arsenic agelong arsenic they get theirs. That is conscionable not the mode I ever thought it would be. That has been a spot of a astonishment to me. If you can’t person a small spot of courageousness erstwhile you person billions and billions of dollars, I deliberation the worth of that wealth is suspect. I deliberation it’s going to instrumentality Americans who are not billionaires to prevention this country, and past we’re going to person a batch of questions for each these affluent radical who sat astir conscionable watching it burn.

We’ve talked astir the illness oregon weakening of galore institutions. You’ve worked for large media companies, for California politicians, and present you’re independent. So, successful a way, possibly the disillusionment with institutions and their quality to execute connected information oregon determination the needle, possibly you’re surviving that retired now? No?

Well, I’d accidental it’s much a concern wherever billionaires successful exertion person killed journalism jobs. I would’ve decidedly been astatine a work if determination had been one. It was a hard conflict past twelvemonth to find a mode to marque ends conscionable and inactive constitute the stories I wrote for The New Republic. I don’t cognize if radical cognize what freelance pays these days, but I wrote 5 large stories, and it got maine astir a month’s worthy of rent successful San Francisco. So, you don’t marque your wealth disconnected of writing. You constitute connected the side, and you find different ways to survive. I deliberation that we were talking earlier astir exertion taking jobs. Do you retrieve the San Jose Mercury News in 1998, compared to now?

I do.

So, determination was a spot of a decimation. But I deliberation the bigger occupation is the economics of it, wherever immoderate spot you spell — and I was astatine the San Francisco Examiner — it’s conscionable layoffs each the time. It gets a spot depressing, and past the rules get tighter and tighter. There’s conscionable changeless panic and trying to remake immoderate the work is to conscionable immoderate people that immoderate caller idiosyncratic has due to the fact that the past idiosyncratic failed. I was really going to permission journalism, but I recovered this story, and I felt similar I had to archer this story. Maybe this is the past communicative I’ll archer arsenic a journalist. So, I did it. 

But fortunately, determination are affirmative parts of technology. It doesn’t each person to beryllium controlled by a fistful of fascists. We merit exertion arsenic well. We merit exertion that doesn’t travel with the menace of losing our freedom, of losing our identity, of losing our mode of life. Ironically, exertion has created this strategy present wherever I tin person nonstop subscribers and bash my enactment and scope radical connected podcasts and connected YouTube. 

So, we’re each successful this soup. My statement is not that exertion is bad. I americium an aboriginal adopter of everything. I conscionable got a caller e-bike. It’s that we don’t person to unrecorded nether the footwear of these radical due to the fact that they’re astatine immoderate institution that creates something. There should beryllium much nationalist ownership of immoderate of these things arsenic well.

Unpack immoderate of that because, arsenic you said, you are not a Luddite. In fact, you are embracing tons of exertion and however you’re distributing this Nerd Reich message, this newsletter and podcast, and you’re utilizing immoderate AI successful however the connection is formulated and distributed, right? Like the imagery. Tell maine astir that.

Oh, well, I forbade that connected the podcast. We’re utilizing Adobe now; I usage Shutterstock. I similar existent quality images. There was a infinitesimal aboriginal connected erstwhile I utilized a spot of OpenAI’s representation generation. It was similar a caller toy, and I utilized it really to picture the aboriginal that immoderate of these guys want. Actually, Balaji Srinivasan had talked astir this Gray Pride Parade, wherever each the techies would deterioration grey uniforms and march down Market Street successful San Francisco with constabulary and drones flying overhead. So, I virtually plugged his operation into OpenAI, into DALL-E, and it created this terrifying, horrific representation that looked really similar Trump’s parade implicit the weekend.

But the much I person had conversations with radical and talked astir this stuff, the much uncomfortable I’ve go with utilizing those tools. I deliberation close present we’re seeing this signifier of an AI creation aesthetic that’s going to look truly atrocious successful a fewer years, particularly erstwhile you deliberation astir the magnitude of theft and robbery taking spot to make these small toys and the thought that it boils a swimming excavation oregon thing successful bid to make it. 

So, I person made it wide that I don’t privation AI successful my images. So I usage Shutterstock. I deliberation astir radical who are looking for the words, anyway. Actually, I’ve got a Nerd Reich art task underway, and I’m going to enactment with a existent creator connected it, adjacent though radical are like, “Just usage AI.” I don’t deliberation we tin get to a constituent wherever we conscionable usage AI arsenic agelong arsenic it’s going to enrich these guys. 

That’s the aforesaid crushed I’m not connected Substack. I started connected Substack, but a batch of my readers were like, “How tin you beryllium connected Substack? Andreessen Horowitz is 1 of the main investors successful this.” At first, I was hesitant, and Substack made it truly casual to commencement a newsletter and monetize it. But determination are alternatives. There’s a nonprofit I usage now, Ghost, and successful fact, it takes a smaller percent of your pay. I’ve had bigger maturation connected it. It truly does beryllium connected your content. You’re not going to go a large Substack writer with a crappy blog. If you’re a bully writer, you tin instrumentality it elsewhere.

So, I deliberation we each person to navigate these relationships, and there’s nary mode to beryllium perfect, conscionable similar we usage fossil fuels. We devour products that mightiness beryllium harvested nether unethical conditions, but we person to strive to beryllium much conscious of our relationships with these technologies and to bash amended if we can.

Sounds similar farm-to-table technology. So, okay, determination are boundaries astir what you’re consenting to do. You axed retired the AI stuff. That’s similar being like, “Okay, I’m not going to import that nutrient from that acold distant and pain each those fossil fuels.” You’re inactive podcasting. You’re inactive utilizing the internet, right? It’s technology. 

What are you uncovering astir the feedback that you’re getting? What’s driving the maturation and the engagement connected the platforms wherever radical are proceeding your thesis and the guests with whom you’re speaking?

I deliberation radical person been looking for a mode to marque consciousness of what’s happening. This has been a missing portion of the puzzle: “What’s happening with Silicon Valley?” It’s a rightward turn. It’s mating with MAGA and these weird ideas that we spot coming out, similar the Freedom City, taking Greenland and giving it to Praxis, which is simply a institution founded by oregon funded by Sam Altman, Peter Thiel, and Marc Andreessen. People wonderment wherefore each this is happening. No one’s been telling a cohesive communicative successful the mainstream property astir wherefore it’s happening. That’s precise overmuch been my focus. 

Look, past year, I deliberation to a batch of radical this seemed similar conspiratorial stuff, oregon similar you said earlier, it seemed weird. Well, we unrecorded successful weird times, and we’ve got immoderate conspiratorial radical connected the scene. I deliberation that the property is yet starting to drawback up to what I was trying to accidental past year. If Kamala Harris had won, it would look similar I had gone down a precise unusual rabbit hole, and it wouldn’t person been wide why, due to the fact that this worldly would’ve been pushed backmost a fewer years. I deliberation it inactive would’ve been relevant, but it would’ve been pushed back. 

But adjacent I didn’t expect it to accelerate this quickly. I didn’t deliberation it’d beryllium Elon Musk successful the White House doing Curtis Yarvin’s “retire each authorities employees” plan. I didn’t deliberation that Trump would already beryllium pushing to physique these state cities and instrumentality Greenland for the intent of doing that. This has gone overmuch faster and overmuch further than I expected truthful far. 

Now we’ve got radical similar Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong openly talking astir Bitcoin replacing the dollar arsenic a planetary reserve currency, which is different happening I’ve been talking astir for a mates of years that would person immoderate melodramatic effects connected this state and its lasting successful the world. So, unfortunately, this worldly ended up being a batch much important than it should person been. I anticipation journalists astatine the large papers and publications with monolithic followings volition commencement to tune successful and archer people, due to the fact that what I person recovered is that radical truly privation to know. 

Once you explicate it to them, they recognize it. They person the tools to recognize what’s happening, and the ideology of accusation is indispensable for citizens to marque the close decisions. I don’t spot wherefore radical are censoring an important portion of this story. I spent my beingness arsenic a writer astatine constitution newspapers, moving for constitution politicians. I’m a beauteous coagulated evidence-based guy. I deliberation that this procreation of governmental editors astatine papers similar The Washington Post and The New York Times should beryllium known arsenic the procreation of nonaccomplishment for wholly missing this story. The information that they’re racing to bash it present proves the point.

Well, let’s adjacent connected a hopeful enactment then. Paint for maine — and get retired your greens and yellows possibly — the representation of however America, however society, and possibly adjacent however tech works its mode retired of this situation. You alluded earlier to the non-billionaires rising up and pursuing a antithetic end. How mightiness that happen? What does it take?

Well, I deliberation that this is going to instrumentality millions of radical successful the thoroughfare connected a regular basis. We person to get done the existent crisis, and these tech oligarchs person to spot that they’re playing a precise unsafe crippled by cozying up to Trump and facilitating his fantasies of an authoritarian translation of this country. Over time, though, I deliberation we person to reckon with the information that these radical person capable wealth to beryllium an ongoing menace and to effort this again. So, I deliberation it’s going to instrumentality an consciousness of the relation that billionaires play successful our nine and a governmental question to request leaders who are consenting to code that problem.

What benignant of leaders? During the pandemic, the Black Lives Matter Movement roseate up, and determination was this determination toward… I’m not going to accidental precisely leaderless, but decentralized approaches to movements. I haven’t tested this out, truthful poke holes successful it, if you will. 

But the Republican Party and the close person go much centralized successful Donald Trump than astatine immoderate time, I would argue, successful our lifetimes. Even Republicans who don’t hold with ample portions of what he’s said, galore of them are falling successful line, and it’s led to this aboriginal quality of the Trump medication to marque monolithic progress.

So, if you’re coating a representation of however things mightiness plaything the different way, is decentralization the answer? Or does determination request to beryllium the emergence of a antithetic charismatic figure, unsafe arsenic those mightiness be, to assistance radical believe?

I don’t deliberation it has to beryllium 1 charismatic figure. I deliberation it has to beryllium a question that speaks to the existent needs of people. Like I said earlier, 60 percent of Americans can’t spend the basics. If the Democratic Party can’t find a mode to marque usage of that, well, past I conjecture it’s lights out. You’ve got AOC and Bernie Sanders going astir drafting tens of thousands of radical successful traditionally blimpish areas. People are looking for leaders who talk to their basal halfway values and issues, and the Democratic Party conscionable wants to play tag on with crypto. They privation to beryllium a lighter mentation of the Republican Party. I deliberation that mode lies doom.

I deliberation particularly with these younger radical coming up today, they are not successful the mood, particularly aft the adjacent 4 years, for immoderate half-baked, mealy-mouthed governmental enactment that tells them that the presumption quo is besides the future. So, 1 mode oregon another, we’re going to get sold a imaginativeness of that future, and it’s going to beryllium this fascist tech dystopia, oregon it’s going to beryllium thing that serves the bulk of radical and preserves the ideas of freedom, democracy, and the regularisation of law. Again, if the Democratic Party can’t find a mode to connection that, past idiosyncratic other volition travel on and bash it for them.

Who?

Oh, I don’t know. I don’t deliberation the person has yet appeared, but radical similar Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders have. And Zohran Mamdani successful New York seems to beryllium tapping into thing precise powerful. If the Democrats aren’t going to bash it, past idiosyncratic other will.

All right. Gil Duran, the podcast and the newsletter are The Nerd Reich. Is the book besides called The Nerd Reich?

The Nerd Reich: Silicon Valley Fascism and the War connected Global Democracy.

Now we’re early, but you’re penning it astir apt close earlier we got connected present and close after, successful each kinds of moments. How acold retired should radical look for this to possibly appear? Well, definitely, but however acold retired should radical look for it to look connected shelves?

Oh, 2026, but if you privation to support up with the progress, it’s thenerdreich.com and it’s free.

Oh, there’s similar a advancement bar.

Well, I’m giving radical immoderate updates, and you tin spot wherever I’m going with stuff.

Gil, convey you for coming connected Decoder.

Thank you.

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