Rivian CEO: ‘We’re really convicted’ about skipping CarPlay

Hello, and invited to Decoder! My impermanent contiguous is Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe, and I’m precise excited to beryllium talking to him connected my amusement today.

And erstwhile I accidental my show… I mean Nilay Patel’s show. This is my last occurrence filling successful for Nilay portion he’s retired connected parental leave. I’m Joanna Stern, the elder idiosyncratic tech columnist astatine The Wall Street Journal, writer of the upcoming publication I AM NOT A ROBOT (out successful 2026), and — amusive information — a cofounder of The Verge.

Decoder is disconnected adjacent Monday, but erstwhile the amusement returns, Nilay volition beryllium backmost successful the big seat. But until then, I get to thrust the Decoder car 1 past clip with Rivian’s CEO riding shotgun. This is RJ’s 3rd clip connected the show, and it felt similar the cleanable follow-up to my speech past week with Ford CEO Jim Farley.

I loved the thought of going consecutive from Ford — a bequest automaker heavy successful the EV modulation — to Rivian, arguably the astir competitory EV-only car institution successful the U.S. down Tesla. If you listened to the Farley episode, this 1 flows nicely. RJ and I screen a batch of the aforesaid challenges: tariffs, China, EV pricing. 

But Rivian doesn’t person the bequest tech and different baggage of a accepted automaker. That cleanable slate makes things similar bundle easier, but it conscionable means the roadworthy up has different acceptable of bumps. 

And yes, we talked astir however my Ford Mustang Mach-E’s lease is up adjacent twelvemonth — cleanable timing, since Rivian’s caller R2, expected successful aboriginal 2026, starts astatine $45,000.

Of course, I besides asked astir CarPlay.

Okay: Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe. Here we go.

This interrogation has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity. 

All right, RJ Scaringe, you are the CEO and laminitis of Rivian. Welcome backmost to Decoder.

Well, it’s large to beryllium on. Thank you for having me.

I’ve taken implicit for Nilay. I’m besides changing the sanction of this amusement to “What Car Should Joanna Lease Next?” Actually, fto maine alteration the sanction of the show. Do you person a amended sanction for the show?

“What Car Should Joanna Buy Next?” truly rolls disconnected your tongue, truthful it’s beauteous good.

Yeah, it’s going to acceptable close nicely there. So, I wanted to instrumentality you done this due to the fact that you are my 2nd car CEO connected the show, and that’s however I decided to bash my takeover. One of the reasons I did that… well, determination are 2 reasons.

One, I ever perceive to Nilay’s car CEO interviews and emotion them, but I americium besides ever driving successful the car listening to them and screaming that helium should beryllium asking antithetic questions. The questions I privation answered are usually: Which car should I lease next? So, that is fig one.

Yeah, truthful present we are.

The fig 2 crushed is that 3 years ago, I leased my archetypal EV. It was a Mustang Mach-E. I’ve been rather blessed with it, but adjacent twelvemonth that lease goes up, and I person a fig of things I deliberation I want. So I thought we could speech done immoderate of that, and I thought that would pass a batch of our speech contiguous astir the aboriginal of EVs and the aboriginal of Rivian.

Great. So I get to merchantability you a car possibly by the extremity of the show?

I privation you to not beryllium the sleaziest car salesman, but the coolest car salesman. And if you’re lucky, I volition thrust it disconnected the lot.

Okay, each right. Going for a chill car salesman vibe. Got it.

Yes.

Register that.

So let’s commencement there, connected what Rivian has successful the marketplace and what’s coming. When you came retired with the R1, I judge astir 5 years agone now, you were precise overmuch billed arsenic this electrical motortruck company. 

Now, you’ve got the R1S, you are expanding to the R2 and the R3 aft that. It seems similar your extremity is to beryllium much than conscionable an costly motortruck company. How bash you deliberation astir Rivian today? How should I deliberation astir Rivian today?

The extremity is decidedly to beryllium overmuch broader than an costly electrical conveyance company. So erstwhile you motorboat a caller company, it’s ever an important question: what bash you motorboat first? We made that determination truly adjacent earlier we made the determination connected products. We realized we wanted to physique a marque astir enabling progressive lifestyles. The pursuing we earned became truly clear, we wanted to motorboat with a flagship acceptable of products.

So we launched the R1 merchandise with a brother-sister, sibling acceptable of products. It was the R1T, which is simply a truck, and there’s the R1S, which is an SUV. Those 2 vehicles were intended to motorboat the marque and truly beryllium our handshake with the world. It enabled america to archer a communicative astir what we basal for, the types of experiences, and the trade-offs we marque successful presumption of attributes. Let’s say, similar on-road and off-road performance, performance, and efficiency.

R2 is truly conscionable the continuation of that. So whereas R1 has an mean transaction terms of astir $90,000, the R2 starts astatine $45,000. It captures a batch of those aforesaid marque elements, truthful the vehicles tin acceptable your gear, your pets, your kids, your stuff, and they tin spell off-road, but it’s overmuch smaller. Then, of course, arsenic I said, it’s besides overmuch much affordable. For us, it’s the archetypal merchandise that’ll instrumentality america from this flagship, which is what we started with, to thing that is broadly accessible successful presumption of pricing.

So, we’re ace excited astir it. But I mean, the happening astir R2 that I deliberation is truthful astonishing is that a batch of the trade-offs we’ve had to marque to get the outgo down are a lot. We’ve taken astir fractional the outgo retired of the conveyance — a small spot much — and it doesn’t manifest successful a nonaccomplishment of perceived, let’s say, features oregon quality. It’s the execution: the interior is conscionable beautiful, and the mode the car rides and drives is amazing. It’s evidently smaller, but it truly feels similar a Rivian, and it’s truly enjoyable to drive. 

I deliberation package-wise, for galore users, if you don’t request a seven-row, it’s conscionable the close size. It’s a small spot shorter than a Model Y, but it feels a batch bigger. And I emotion each the small details. The beforehand trunk works great. The rear liftgate is beautiful. It’s got a driblet solid successful the rear truthful you tin enactment things successful the backmost without opening the backmost up. So it’s got each the small intricate details we’ve thought done to marque it consciousness similar a magical merchandise experience.

And erstwhile does it travel out?

We commencement deliveries successful the archetypal fractional of adjacent year, which means we person to commencement gathering what we telephone saleable units successful the aboriginal portion of adjacent year. We’re close present successful what we telephone a validation phase. So we’re gathering vehicles, we’re camouflaging them, driving them connected nationalist roads. We statesman moving each of our manufacturing validation builds, truthful moving vehicles done our works connected accumulation instrumentality and accumulation process aboriginal this year. In the aboriginal portion of adjacent year, we’ll modulation from non-saleable units. We built a fewer 100 of those, which we devour internally, to past units that are saleable to consumers. So yeah, the aboriginal portion of adjacent year.

So by August 2026?

Yeah, August, for sure.

When my lease is up, volition the R2 beryllium connected shelves? That’s not what you accidental successful the car business.

We could person an R2 successful your driveway erstwhile your lease is up, yes.

Okay, okay. Well, you’re already disconnected to a bully start, and we’re going to speech astir my acquisition test-driving R1S this summer. That’s 1 of the reasons I wanted to person you connected the show. But I privation to rapidly speech astir however you’re expanding present and immoderate of the backdrop of Rivian. 

I think, actually, it’s benignant of cleanable due to the fact that I unrecorded successful a municipality successful New Jersey that should beauteous overmuch conscionable beryllium called Rivianfield, oregon Rivianland. Everyone has the R1 oregon the R1S. When you were designing them, were you like, “Let’s marque a motortruck that suburban moms love, and dads?” Were the pictures of suburban moms and dads connected your temper board?

Well, actually, it’s comic you accidental that. So erstwhile we were processing the vehicle, adjacent mode earlier we’d shown it to the satellite — we did the aforesaid connected R2, and we’re doing the aforesaid connected R3 and R4 — we ever make this thought of “what is the vehicle?” What’s the consciousness of the conveyance privation to be, oregon what’s the essence of it? But past we construe it done the lens of tons of antithetic people customers. 

So, successful the lawsuit of R1, it’s a truly wide acceptable of buyers. We wanted a truly divers demographic this would entreaty to. One of them, which of people is simply a large demographic, is radical who are utilizing it to enactment their household with kids oregon with pets oregon with gear. Not surprisingly, it fits each those things truly well. It truly resonated beautifully with customers who person kids oregon person families.

Interestingly, and this is simply a amusive small fact, we’re the best-selling premium electrical SUV successful the country. So the mode you gully the bound diagrams connected these is ever confusing, but the mode we gully it astir premium SUVs, we person astir 35 percent marketplace stock for premium electrical SUVs. But successful California and the authorities of Washington, we’re the best-selling premium SUV, electrical oregon non-electric. 

So if you’re buying an SUV successful the authorities of California and it’s premium, meaning implicit $70,000, you’re statistically astir apt to beryllium buying a Rivian, and the aforesaid is existent successful Washington. So arsenic dense arsenic it seems successful New Jersey, places similar Seattle oregon Mill Valley are areas wherever it’s the same. It’s very, precise fashionable successful these markets.

But successful that terms scope successful EVs, you truly lone person 1 competitor, right? Is that the [Ford F-150] Lightning?

No, there’s [Tesla] Model X. 

Okay, Model X is really classified arsenic an SUV there, too. Okay.

Yeah. So we outsell Model X by rather a bit. We outsell, well, everything. There are Cadillacs successful that terms range. There are besides GMCs and the Cybertruck. So determination are a batch of things up successful that terms category.

Going backmost to reasoning astir this municipality I unrecorded successful and immoderate of the towns you were talking astir there, I mean, it’s mostly coastal, I would assume. That’s wherever you’ve got an assemblage and a demographic of radical who tin spend a $90,000 car that needs a bigger body. I’m assuming that portion of the strategy that you’re truly going for present with R2 is to grow that, to spell beyond that niche. Are you assured successful that, fixed what the backdrop of the ecosystem and contention looks similar close now?

Yeah, we had a committee treatment the different day, and I said it, and I’ll accidental it here: I’ve ne'er been much assured successful the concern than wherever we are today. I deliberation 1 of the large risks successful launching a caller institution is that determination are tons of things you could power that are reasonably deterministic. Does the conveyance accelerate similar this? What’s the scope of the vehicle? Does it acceptable this benignant of stuff? And past determination are a fig of things that are acold little deterministic, and successful immoderate ways, I deliberation of those arsenic astir similar magic. And the biggest 1 of those is the marque and however good the marque resonates.

As we conscionable described, you tin bash each these temper boards and studies to accidental this is what we anticipation the marque becomes. But if I were to upwind the timepiece backmost to 2020, earlier we launched, I wouldn’t person imagined the marque would adjacent person resonated arsenic good arsenic it has. Since we launched, each twelvemonth since we’ve launched, Consumer Reports does this yearly marque entreaty study, and it’s based upon what we say, but they survey tons of antithetic customers independently. And since we launched successful 2021, we’ve been astatine the fig 1 spot connected that chart. So, we’re fig 1 level for marque appeal, and past by acold the highest complaint of repurchase.

The marque is conscionable truly connected with consumers — the authenticity of it, the mode that we’ve approached making each of these trade-offs and decisions astatine the merchandise level, however that yet shows up and manifests arsenic a business, arsenic a company. My anticipation is that if we tin instrumentality adjacent a fraction of the marketplace stock occurrence that we’ve had astatine this premium terms constituent with our flagship merchandise and construe that to the wide marketplace product, the R2, we’d beryllium truly happy. 

So, of course, we’d beryllium happier if we could instrumentality a bigger fraction of that marketplace stock of success. But to get 35 percent marketplace stock successful the segments we’re operating, outselling each the different EV alternatives, this conception we’re present going into with R2 is precise big. This is crushed up with tons of interior combustion motor (ICE) vehicles and tons of hybrids. Of course, you spot Model Y successful this terms category. 

The Chevy Equinox, which I’m seeing each implicit the place.

Chevy Equinox, yes. There’s a full big of products we get to vie against.

My erstwhile Decoder impermanent was Jim Farley, the CEO of Ford. I cognize you guys cognize each other.

Yeah, yeah. 

We spent a batch of clip talking astir the menace of a institution that doesn’t adjacent merchantability cars successful America, which is BYD. The mindset is that it is the rival successful the lower-cost, high-tech EV space. Even though they don’t merchantability successful the US, what they’re doing is the competition. He said the Chinese are the 700-pound gorilla successful our manufacture for EVs. There’s nary existent contention from Tesla, GM, oregon Ford with what we’ve seen travel from China. That’s intelligibly what he’s reasoning about. What astir you?

Yeah, I deliberation determination are 2 things to telephone retired astir China that are important. The archetypal is evidently their outgo structure, and I deliberation that draws a batch of attention. Their outgo operation is not… I’m definite Ford has, and we have, but everyone buys everyone’s products and looks astatine however they’re made. There are surely tons of innovations that are being made, but there’s thing that everyone’s not alert of oregon that they themselves aren’t doing successful presumption of manufacturing process, conveyance design, oregon conveyance architecture. 

I deliberation what’s happened connected outgo is BYD has the compounding benefits of precise debased outgo to capital, some astatine the OEM level and astatine their suppliers. In galore cases, the plants are escaped oregon adjacent to free. It has precise debased labour cost, precise precocious labour availability, and that conscionable compounds arsenic you spell from earthy materials each the mode up the proviso concatenation to these dramatically lower-cost structures than what we person successful the Western world.

So, I deliberation what volition hap determination is either you’ll spot tariffs spell successful spot oregon requirements that those vehicles beryllium produced locally, wherever a batch of those outgo advantages spell away. And so, arsenic overmuch arsenic I deliberation outgo is thing we should each beryllium alert of, and to accidental look astatine however debased the outgo is to physique vehicles successful China, which we tin see, Western companies tin besides payment from arsenic well. You look astatine the outgo operation of Tesla’s vehicles built successful Shanghai versus Tesla’s vehicles built successful the United States, and it’s much, overmuch little successful Shanghai. So I deliberation there’s the outgo element.

But the bigger constituent is really however precocious the exertion is. Here, what’s happened is, overmuch similar Tesla, I’d accidental overmuch similar Rivian, if you commencement with a cleanable sheet, you extremity up successful a precise antithetic spot than the bequest car manufacturers. In our case, we developed our full bundle level in-house. We built each of our electronics in-house. That platform’s precise robust, and successful fact, it’s what’s underpinned us. We did a $5.8 cardinal bundle licensing deal and an subordinate associated task with Volkswagen Group, the second-largest car institution successful the world, to instrumentality that exertion and deploy it crossed their vehicles globally, with the objection of the Chinese market. But for Europe, the United States, and the remainder of the world.

I deliberation this is the challenge. Now it’s not conscionable Tesla and Rivian that person this precise unsocial attack to bundle and electronics. It’s a fig of, not all, but a fig of Chinese companies that besides person a overmuch much precocious attack to bundle and electronics. The bequest OEMs person to precise rapidly displacement however they attack this method domain, which has historically not been a halfway competency of OEMs. Historically, they’re precise mechanical companies, and they’ve relied connected Tier 1 suppliers to bash a batch of that work. Those Tier 1 suppliers often trust connected Tier 2, truthful the bundle and electronics abstraction successful automotive tends to beryllium rather a spot down user electronics arsenic a effect of this outsourced third-party attack that the car manufacture has evolved to usage implicit the past fewer decades.

Well, you walked close into immoderate of my questions astir tariffs. And also, you truly touched connected a ample portion of what my speech with Ford’s Jim Farley was about, which was astir however helium pivots the institution to bash immoderate of the worldly that you’re doing. 

But let’s spell backmost to tariffs due to the fact that it’s wide that they are affecting your business. It is affecting this full automotive industry. If you look astatine what you’re trying to bash with R2, which is to bring down the outgo and marque this an affordable vehicle, oregon astatine slightest your efforts to marque it an affordable vehicle, and you’re up against tariffs. Can you bash this? Is this conscionable similar the worst-case-scenario timing for you?

With R2, we’ve really had the payment of making a batch of sourcing decisions, recognizing immoderate of what I’d qualify arsenic planetary geopolitical shifts. One of the biggest planetary changes successful mindset that’s not conscionable unsocial to the United States, but we’re seeing crossed the Western world, is an progressively domestic-centric attack to manufacturing. Meaning, successful the lawsuit of the United States and I’d accidental broadly successful the lawsuit of Europe, there’s a tendency to clasp much manufacturing contented section to the markets successful which the vehicles are sold.

In our case, due to the fact that we’re producing each of our products successful the United States, we knew that going into the sourcing of R2, truthful we had built a US-centric proviso concatenation astir that. Of course, determination are immoderate things that we don’t marque successful the United States, similar definite metals and particularly dense uncommon world metals. Certain materials conscionable globally truly aren’t calved retired of the United States. Things similar nickel are a precise bully illustration — 92 percent of the world’s nickel proviso comes from Indonesia.

So, successful definite aspects of the vehicle, we’ve had to physique cross-border commercialized relationships. Some of the changes we’re seeing successful commercialized argumentation bash adhd cost, but we’ve had the payment of being capable to beryllium rather plan-full astir that. Whereas connected R1, which was already successful accumulation with a afloat sourced and afloat operating proviso chain, the changes to commercialized argumentation being truthful abrupt, we didn’t person the clip to respond to those arsenic thoughtfully arsenic we’ve been capable to with R2.

You mentioned —  I mean, I deliberation it’s well-known — that Rivian is manufacturing successful the US, and it feels similar you’re making these cars here. You’re adding jobs here, but you’re inactive facing, from this administration, the tariffs and the upcoming cuts to EV taxation credits. Do you consciousness similar this administration’s conscionable moving against you? Are you conscionable pushing against the tide each the time?

An important portion of my job, and I’d accidental progressively so, is looking astatine each the unknowns successful the system. We deliberation of this conscionable not for maine but for the full enactment team, looking astatine each the changes successful the strategy and trying to recognize what things are going to beryllium persistent? What are the changes that are going to beryllium 2 years from now, a fewer years from now, 5 years from now? What are the things that are somewhat successful the noise? And erstwhile we look astatine it done that lens, determination are a fig of truly wide things.

So 1 happening that’s precise clear, careless of whether you’re looking astatine it from a Republican constituent of presumption oregon a Democratic constituent of view, is that gathering independency from China is going to beryllium a taxable that’s important successful the United States. That was truly important for america arsenic we sourced R2. We built precise small dependency, oregon arsenic small dependency arsenic possible, connected the Chinese proviso chain. That carries with it assumptions astir costs and antithetic outgo structures, but that was 1 cardinal takeaway. In that way, we’ve aligned the concern to the intent of some governmental parties successful the United States.

The different is that there’s a large propulsion for US capableness successful some exertion and US capableness successful manufacturing. So, putting speech immoderate of the, I’d say, sound and short-term changes that person impacts, existent impacts, connected america astir electrical vehicles and immoderate of the argumentation for electrical vehicles, we find ourselves precise aligned successful presumption of gathering heavy exertion expertise successful the United States. Technology expertise that is truthful beardown that, successful fact, we’re selling that to different companies extracurricular the United States. So this woody with Volkswagen is 1 of the largest bundle licensing deals successful the past of the car industry, betwixt a US institution and a European company.

I deliberation there’s alignment there, but a large portion of what we effort to find is simply a mode to depoliticize electrical vehicles, which person go political. They shouldn’t be. We’re investing successful gathering exertion and jobs successful the United States. We employment adjacent to 16,000 radical present successful the US, truthful we’re a ample company. We person 1 of the strongest exertion teams, I think, successful the car industry. And truthful we walk a batch of clip with the medication connected that, and there’s a batch of enactment and enthusiasm for what we’re creating and gathering successful that regard.

You should conscionable bring an R2 to the White House. You should get President Trump successful an R2, and helium tin accidental everything’s computer.

[Laughs] We’ll person to inquire him, we’ll see.

Yeah. Do you spell to Mar-a-Lago successful your R2?

It would enactment beautifully there. The rear model drops down, and you tin enactment a surfboard successful the back. It’s a bully idea. It’s the eventual conveyance for being down there.

Well, see, you’re not lone going to merchantability maine an R2, you’re going to merchantability an R2 to the President of the United States. What a large amusement for you.

Well, I accidental this each the time, Michael Jordan has a punctuation I conscionable love, which is that some Republicans and Democrats bargain Nikes, and the aforesaid is existent for Rivian. I deliberation it’s a large effect that we effort precise hard not to marque what we’re doing political. We person a batch of Republicans who bargain our vehicles and emotion them. We person a batch of Democrats who bargain our vehicles and emotion them. We person radical who are successful the middle, and we person Independents. 

So we effort to beryllium arsenic wide arsenic possible, successful presumption of creating a invited mat for america arsenic a company, and truly entreaty to the halfway values of enabling progressive lifestyles. That’s not a governmental orientation; it spans crossed each governmental points of view.

Although I’ll inquire you, did it assistance you that determination was the Elon Musk-Donald Trump confederation and that I present spot galore radical with bumper stickers connected Tesla saying, “I bought this earlier Elon went crazy.” I’m assuming that possibly that helped you.

It’s been absorbing to watch. There’s a agelong database of things that I could accidental a twelvemonth agone I would’ve ne'er expected to spot happen. So this clip past year, I wouldn’t person predicted immoderate of what happened there to person occurred. But I deliberation astatine the extremity of the day, look, I deliberation the important happening is that successful Tesla’s case, they bash person a large acceptable of products. The Model Y and Model 3 are large products. I’ve owned them, truthful I’ve been a lawsuit a fewer times, and I deliberation it’s bully that customers person that arsenic a choice.

I privation to get to immoderate much merchandise questions and things astir my R1S driving, but I privation to instrumentality conscionable for different 2nd connected the authorities of the system and the authorities of your concern and the information that you person the uphill conflict present of making cars that are profitable for you. You are still, arsenic acold arsenic I tin archer from net and reports, losing wealth connected each of the vehicles you sell. Is that going to amended successful the coming months, and with the R2?

It amended improve, and I accidental that with a smile. So if we look astatine our trajectory, erstwhile we launched, we had a full big of challenges that truly were not predicted. We didn’t predict, erstwhile we launched, that it’d beryllium close into the pandemic. It’s astir apt hard to ideate a much challenging situation to motorboat an concern concern into. It’s hard to physique a works and motorboat a works with distant enactment and enactment from home.

We past had a immense proviso concatenation crisis, and fixed we’re a caller manufacturer, we had a existent situation that persisted good into 2023, astir conscionable our quality to get capable parts. So we were starved for parts, which manufacturing truly benefits from predictability and being steady, and our on-off quality conscionable created a immense magnitude of unexpected fixed outgo overhead.

Then, arsenic we came into 2024, things started to truly travel together. We launched immoderate updates to the conveyance we telephone our Gen 2 mentation of R1, and truthful successful the 4th fourth of 2024, we were affirmative gross margin. In the archetypal 4th of 2025, we had implicit $200 cardinal of affirmative gross margin, which was awesome.

This past 4th was a pugnacious 4th for us, Q2 of 2025. We had a large driblet disconnected successful volume, mostly driven by immoderate of the challenges astir getting capable dense uncommon world metals to marque our motor. So successful our case, due to the fact that each of our vehicles are, of course, electric, we nutrient each of our vehicles successful the United States. China, arsenic portion of the commercialized negotiations that person been happening, enactment successful spot an export power that didn’t let the export of magnets into the United States. So we conscionable couldn’t marque motors due to the fact that these motors needed the magnets.

We went from 14,000 units produced successful Q1 to astir 6,000 successful Q2. That was a singular benignant of signifier shift, if you will, that we felt we saw successful the numbers. But we built solutions astir that. That export power has been lifted. So we’re rather bullish connected however the remainder of this twelvemonth is going to go. We’ll nutrient and merchantability much vehicles successful the 2nd fractional of the twelvemonth than we did successful the archetypal half.

As you said, the motorboat of R2 truly ignites the business. It allows america to get to a level of measurement that helps screen our operating fixed costs. It’s similar our works fixed costs, and past the wide OpEx of the business. So each the R&D and SG&A, the income administrative functions of the business, enactment selling and delivering, and servicing each these vehicles. Scale is simply a truly important portion of the automotive concern and automotive production. It becomes adjacent much important if you’re highly vertically integrated, which we are. So, erstwhile you get to that scale, that vertical integration creates a structural vantage successful outgo structure. But you request a definite level of scale, which R2 brings for us.

Okay, and possibly it won’t beryllium successful this quarter, but possibly you’ll person my R2 lease. 

And that’ll help.

That’ll help, but you’re going to person to person idiosyncratic of this determination that isn’t me. So I’m going to play a connection from him soon. But I trial drove the R1S this summer. I drove it galore miles. It was astir 500 miles successful your car. So, convey you for that.

I emotion it, okay.

But I had a beauteous pugnacious reviewer successful the car for this full time. And we person a speedy question from him. I’m going to play it.

Joanna’s Son: Why did we get a level tire, Rivian Man?

And what other bash you similar astir the car?

Joanna’s Son: That we person the paper for it, and it opened. That’s cool.

So did you perceive the opening of the question?

I couldn’t rather perceive the beginning.

It’s, “Why did we get a level tire, Rivian Man?

I heard the Rivian Man, which I truly liked. That’s adorable.

Yeah, that’s your name. I told him I was going to speech to “Rivian Man.” And truthful that’s what helium said. He wanted to know, “Why did we get a level tire, Rivian Man?”

I really don’t know. Did you tally implicit a nail oregon something?

I don’t cognize either. I don’t know. Anytime helium sees a Rivian now, he’s like, “That’s a Rivian, it has a level tire.” And I had to explicate to him that really each cars can-

Can get level tires, yeah.

And past the 2nd portion of his question was, it wasn’t truly a question. He conscionable wanted you to cognize that helium loves the cardinal card. He says that’s truly cool. But I wanted to really archer you, I don’t similar the cardinal card.

The cardinal card, actually, is not expected to beryllium utilized different than for benignant of an emergency. You enactment it successful your wallet, oregon you enactment it determination and clasp onto it. But the thought is that your telephone is truly the key. So, I don’t cognize if the team, erstwhile you loaned it, acceptable you up with your telephone arsenic a key, but that’s the idea.

It’s true. I did person it acceptable up connected my telephone for a small spot aft we had the cardinal card. 

Oh, okay.

Any different things you person to accidental to my four-year-old lad successful presumption of wherefore helium should archer maine to get this car?

Ah, truthful I person a six, a seven, and a nine-year-old. So I person a position connected what the kids truly bask with it. I’d accidental successful the lawsuit of R2s, my boys person spent a batch of clip present successful the R2. A batch of the amusive small features we person connected the R1, similar the flashlight successful the door, are inactive there. There’s tons of storage. The beforehand trunk is large successful the R2, but we enactment successful a fewer much features. So the rear solid drops completely. It makes for a truly bully open-air acquisition wherever you tin thrust with the backmost open.

It’s not excessively noisy. You tin acceptable worldly into it. If you person pets, they truly similar it. But the car has each the aforesaid show trade-offs; it’s inactive precise susceptible on-road and off-road. It’s a large escapade mobile; it fits each your gear. So, I deliberation he’d truly bask the R2, but it’s besides easier to get into for kids due to the fact that it’s a small little than the R1. My kids similar the R2 implicit the R1.

Okay, each right. I’ve got a batch to archer my four-year-old; he’s going to beryllium making this decision. He makes each the important buying decisions successful the house.

That’s good.

Also, I substance Nilay a batch astir cars,  often aft I’ve listened to Decoder oregon conscionable erstwhile I’m test-driving cars oregon reasoning astir it. So, I privation to work you the substance I sent him earlier this summer. I said, “Drove Rivian loaner upstate. No occupation charging, but maps are fucking terrible.” The bully quality is you fixed 1 of these problems, the maps, right?

Yep. We person a large concern with Google, truthful the maps are present successful concern with Google, and it was an country wherever determination were a batch of requests for antithetic solutions to our mapping. So the quality of our architecture is that we tin update each sorts of things, including representation applications. We person a full caller mapping environment, which is beautiful. It’s truly nice, I mean, it’s conscionable large moving with the Google squad to make this. It’s truly special, it’s a fantastic application.

Did you enactment with the Google squad connected the underlying infotainment system? That’s based connected Android, right?

It’s a bully question. We didn’t enactment with Google connected the platform. We built it to truly enactment seamlessly with the Android ecosystem truthful that immoderate of the apps that we integrate tin beryllium pulled successful much seamlessly. But we did that wholly without Google. And past successful the lawsuit of the maps, we did enactment precise intimately with Google.

That makes sense. Well, I did get the R1S backmost to trial station the maps update, and it is importantly improved. So that’s bully timing for you to beryllium connected the show. 

I emotion that. So we checked 1 container there.

Checked 1 box. 

Okay, 1 of the main reasons I got a Mach-E really had to bash with CarPlay. Do you inactive hatred CarPlay?

[Laughs] I emotion it, that’s a comic mode to inquire it. No, we decidedly don’t hatred CarPlay. We’ve made the decision, which I’m precise assured about, that successful the fullness of time, customers volition appreciate, which is that we wanted to person a seamless integer experience. To not person the request to leap betwixt CarPlay, which feels evidently similar CarPlay, and truthful it feels the aforesaid successful each car, and past what we make arsenic a Rivian environment. And rather, deliberation of it much à la carte, make each the aforesaid applications. 

So you person YouTube, you tin spell to Spotify, you tin spell to Google Maps, you tin spell to Apple Music, you tin spell to everything. You tin person each those integrations. But for america to clasp the glue for putting that each together, this becomes adjacent much important arsenic we commencement to integrate AI into the vehicle.

Over the adjacent 18 months, we’re going to spot a batch of caller features that, by necessity, are performing tasks oregon making decisions to link antithetic applications. And so, cognition of “what’s the conveyance state?” Knowledge of “is it successful drive, oregon is it parked? What are the conditions extracurricular the vehicle? What’s your driving history? What are your preferences?” Knowledge of each of that astatine an ecosystem level allows america to contiguous a richer, amended acquisition for you arsenic a operator oregon occupant of the vehicle. 

I deliberation it’d beryllium truly hard to bash that if we had to enactment each that done an exertion that expands to instrumentality implicit the surface and provides you fundamentally with a acceptable of bubbles that consciousness precise overmuch similar a CarPlay experience. So portion by piece, everything that idiosyncratic whitethorn person missed from their CarPlay experience, whether it was a mapping, oregon soon we’re going to person a voice-to-text, is going to beryllium there, and it’ll beryllium beautiful. 

We’re truly convicted connected this. For immoderate folks, that means they’re not going to bargain a Rivian. We judge that. It’s a decision. I accidental this each the time: portion of gathering a merchandise arsenic analyzable arsenic this is recognizing and being good with the information that we person to marque a ton of decisions, similar the products, similar a conveyance has galore millions of decisions together. Some of those decisions, not everyone’s going to hold with, and that’s okay.

Our occupation is to person convictions astir the decisions we’re making and person volition and thoughtfulness successful wherefore we made those decisions. But knowing that our extremity is to marque arsenic galore radical arsenic blessed arsenic possible, but besides knowing that you can’t marque everyone blessed due to the fact that not everyone’s going to privation precisely the aforesaid thing.

So what I’m proceeding is you’re decidedly doing CarPlay Ultra.

[Laughs] Yeah, that’s what the takeaway is, decidedly doing it.

That is what you conscionable said.

No, look, we person a great-

No, I perceive you.

I mean, to beryllium clear, we person a large narration with Apple. They’re a adjacent partner. We person a clump of integrations that are coming soon. Apple Music was the archetypal objection of that, but there’s a batch much coming.

More astir messaging?

Yeah, truthful I deliberation messaging, deliberation conveyance access. So I deliberation getting into the conveyance with an Apple Watch and Ultra Wideband, and there’s a full big of things coming. But you don’t request to usage CarPlay to bash that. You tin bash it successful different ways.

I agree. I volition accidental 3 to 4 years ago, CarPlay was fig 1 connected the database of things I wanted successful a caller car. That has rapidly fallen down the list. But I volition archer you what’s going to beryllium adjacent the apical of the database for this adjacent decision, which is AI, autonomy, and self-driving. Group that each together, which is each precise different, obviously, and your teams that perceive to this volition cringe. 

And we’ve talked astir this before, but springiness maine a consciousness of however you’re reasoning astir afloat self-driving oregon immoderate mentation of autonomy that goes beyond what you presently person successful the car, which I’ve tested, which is simply a glorified cruise control. I bash truly admit it. 

But however bash you get to the constituent wherever I americium really conscionable sitting successful my R2, if I get one, and I’m capable to spell from my location successful New Jersey to the workplace successful New York without possibly touching the instrumentality a mates of times? Maybe I interaction it 2 times. How bash you get there?

Yeah. Boy, we could walk the remainder of the clip connected this. This is simply a large topic. 

Well, it’s bully due to the fact that we person different hour.

All right. First, it’s important to admit there’s been a large shift. So the mode autonomous systems were developed up until astir 2021, oregon adjacent 2022, is that you had a cognition level oregon stack of perception, which whitethorn beryllium cameras and radars — possibly successful immoderate cases, cameras, radars, and lidars that would spot the satellite oregon comprehend the world. 

It would place each the objects, it would classify those objects, and it would delegate vectors to those objects, similar however they’re moving successful the world. Then each of those objects would beryllium handed to a planner, and the planner would beryllium a rules-based situation that’s fundamentally a programmed mentation of interpreting however the satellite works and past making a full bid of decisions based upon this defined acceptable of rules. That situation has its evident limitations; it’s precise delicate to changes successful the sensor set, and it’s precise delicate to the determination oregon the application. So, it benignant of reached an asymptote of capability.

While that was being developed, a full caller attack to reasoning astir however to make self-driving systems emerged, which was truly to usage AI, which, interestingly, AI arsenic we cognize it contiguous was not truly portion of the archetypal gen of self-driving systems. It was a precise rules-based environment. So, what’s present happening and what’s happening successful our Gen 2 vehicles, which is wherefore there’s a important quality betwixt our Gen 1 and our Gen 2 vehicles… Our Gen 2 vehicles, which we launched successful the mediate of 2024, brought each of our cognition stack in-house. All the sensors we designed ourselves; determination are nary third-party sensors there. We past built a overmuch much almighty compute platform, truthful an inference level successful the vehicle. 

We’re taking each this information and we trigger it based upon a full assortment of things, which we tin speech astir successful a moment, but, similar absorbing events. We usage that to provender the grooming of a ample parameter model. Think of it similar a instauration exemplary for driving. So, a large, what’s yet a multi-billion parameter model, and that exemplary is simply a neural nett of however to thrust a vehicle. And the quality of this is, arsenic you amended sensors, alteration sensors, oregon alteration conveyance applications, this neural nett of knowing of however to thrust a conveyance doesn’t spell away.

So, a elemental analogy is if I deterioration glasses, if I learned to thrust without glasses, and you abruptly handed maine my glasses, I would not hide everything I learned. I would conscionable thrust better, with much accuracy, due to the fact that I person amended precision oregon amended perception. The aforesaid is existent successful this attack now, which is gathering a ample model. You’ve possibly heard oregon radical person heard it called an end-to-end approach, wherever you instrumentality this attack of having information travel in, you usage that to bid the model, and past that exemplary determines however the vehicle’s operating. Why this is truthful breathtaking is that the complaint of betterment of these systems is going to beryllium overmuch higher.  That’s the level we present person successful our vehicles.

We’re going to statesman to spot the diagnostic acceptable expand. So today, arsenic you said, we telephone it a road assist. It’s a road diagnostic wherever you tin beryllium connected the highway, you tin instrumentality your hands disconnected the wheel, your eyes enactment mostly connected the road, but otherwise, the conveyance drives itself. The adjacent hold of that is hands disconnected the wheel, eyes connected the roadworthy everywhere, truthful connected immoderate benignant of road. The adjacent hold of that is hands disconnected the wheel, eyes connected the road, with turn-by-turn truthful the conveyance tin navigate from 1 code to another, and that’s coming adjacent twelvemonth arsenic well.

The adjacent measurement is for hands disconnected the wheel, eyes disconnected the road, successful definite circumstances. The road is simply a truly bully illustration wherever you’re connected the highway, your hands are disconnected the roadworthy oregon disconnected the wheel, you privation your eyes disconnected the road, and you tin beryllium connected your telephone speechmaking a book. And that acceptable of features for america is going to beryllium coming successful 2027. And that I deliberation is simply a truly large unlock due to the fact that you commencement to get your clip back. So it’s not conscionable reducing the cognitive load connected you to person to run the conveyance and beryllium afloat aware, but it besides gives you the quality to bash different things.

What I conscionable described is each happening implicit the adjacent 18 to 24 months. I deliberation the complaint of advancement present is going to beryllium truthful precocious that if we look astatine the past 10 years for autonomy and comparison it to the adjacent 10 years, it’s going to beryllium connected a wholly antithetic trajectory, specified that by aboriginal 2030s it’s going to beryllium inconceivable to bargain a caller car and not person it execute astatine a precise precocious level from a self-driving constituent of view.

Tell maine existent quick, though, what are the sensors? I mean, there’s this large statement I consciousness happening close now, oregon possibly it’s not truly a debate. There’s possibly 1 broadside of the debate, and nary one’s truly debating it, that determination is the lidar versus cameras. And Tesla’s going each successful connected cameras, saying we don’t request lidar. What astir Rivian? Does Rivian adhd lidar?

Yeah, truthful our presumption is that determination is simply a existent payment [to lidar]. Actually, I should commencement over. The presumption of the entirety of the subject assemblage is that having aggregate sensors is adjuvant due to the fact that you physique a much close presumption of the world. The mode that we physique these neural nets is that you privation a wide knowing of the world, and you privation the highest accuracy. And if you person much than 1 camera, you’re going to person aggregate cameras that person antithetic signals, which person antithetic signal-to-noise ratios that request to beryllium managed. But ultimately, the mode that that accusation is fused precise early, if you person aggregate cameras coupled with radar, coupled with perchance lidar, arsenic you said, it gives you a much fulsome and close picture. It besides allows you to bid your exemplary better.

So, it’s analogous to if I had to larn the satellite with 1 eye, I would larn a little close mentation of the satellite than if I had learned the satellite with 2 eyes. And if you look astatine the evolutionary tracks of galore taxon of animals, astir animals person aggregate modalities of sensing. And the ones that person to run successful possibly the astir utmost environments, let’s accidental utmost darkness, mostly harvester immoderate optical cognition with immoderate wavelength-based perception. Often, similar dependable waves oregon sonar, bats are an illustration of this.

Our presumption is that it’s decidedly beneficial, and our attack to sensors has been that we request to rapidly physique our instauration exemplary arsenic accelerated arsenic possible. Tesla has a batch of vehicles and has made large progress. We person an astonishing product. So we person much megapixels successful cameras. We person 55 megapixels successful cameras successful R1, which’ll leap to 65 megapixels successful R2. We person a truly robust acceptable of country radars and a truly beauteous 3D imaging radar successful the front. And that’s rapidly gathering a robust instauration model, 1 that we’re going to commencement to spot these features I conscionable described play with.

So not ruling retired lidar, is what I’m hearing?

No, I wouldn’t regularisation retired lidar. And there’s different happening I’d conscionable say, which is important to note. I deliberation a batch of the statement astir lidar was calved retired of [autonomous vehicles] 1.0, wherever you really had a rules-based environment, wherever this thought of an aboriginal fusion oregon gathering of a neural nett that wasn’t there. In a rules-based environment, it was much analyzable to bash immoderate of these fusion activities due to the fact that the fusion typically happened a small later. 

Now, what’s happened is that we nary longer tally the models similar that. So the models payment from the maximum magnitude of accusation connected the beforehand of the model. The outgo of lidar utilized to beryllium tens of thousands of dollars. It’s present low, a mates of 100 bucks. So it’s a truly large sensor that tin bash things that cameras can’t.

So my past question comes backmost to buying oregon leasing 1 of your cars adjacent year, which is that, and this is the interest I have, that Rivian was precocious ranked past by Consumer Reports successful a survey connected conveyance reliability. What are you readying to bash astir that? 

That’s thing we’re perfectly focused on. The way, of course, this looks astatine immoderate of our aboriginal builds, our conveyance liability is present getting much, overmuch better. But adjacent with that, adjacent with the information that determination were much work requests connected our aboriginal builds than, let’s say, different vehicles, we had the fig 1 level of lawsuit satisfaction. I ever accidental to our team, erstwhile we look astatine that data, ideate if our reliability gets to beryllium champion successful class, coupled with each the merchandise attributes. So, that’s our goal. 

R1 has continually improved since we launched, and past R2 is simply a further measurement alteration from that with each the learnings that we’ve made astir our accumulation process, accumulation quality, and reliability. It was pugnacious for america erstwhile we archetypal launched because, successful our archetypal year, we came retired fig 1 connected lawsuit satisfaction, but it was our archetypal clip gathering vehicles astatine scale. So not surprisingly, we had much challenges with conscionable ramping up prime systems to statesman with.

Well, the bully quality for you is that I experienced that lawsuit work erstwhile I had that level tire.

Yes.

So, I cognize astir that, and truthful does my four-year-old. So, it’s looking good.

RJ, convey you truthful much. I mean, I person a batch of different questions, but I’m being told I request to wrapper up. They’re giving maine the circle. 

You’re getting the hook?

I’m getting this, yes.

Well, convey you for your time.

Thank you for your time. I truly admit it.

All right, wonderful. Thanks.

_{Questions oregon comments astir this episode? Hit america up astatine [email protected]. We truly bash work each email!}