LexisNexis CEO says the AI law era is already here

Today, I’m talking with Sean Fitzpatrick, the CEO of LexisNexis, 1 of the astir important companies successful the full ineligible system. For years — including erstwhile I was successful instrumentality schoolhouse — LexisNexis was fundamentally the library. It’s wherever you went to look up lawsuit law, bash ineligible research, and find the laws and precedents you would request to beryllium an effectual lawyer for your clients. There isn’t a lawyer contiguous who hasn’t utilized it — it’s cardinal infrastructure for the ineligible profession, conscionable similar email oregon a connection processor.

But endeavor companies with immense databases of proprietary accusation successful 2025 can’t defy the siren telephone of AI, and LexisNexis is nary different. You’ll perceive it: erstwhile I asked Sean to picture LexisNexis to me, the archetypal connection helium said wasn’t “law” oregon “data,” it was “AI.” The extremity is for the LexisNexis AI tool, called Protégé, to spell beyond elemental research, and assistance lawyers draught the existent ineligible penning they taxable to the tribunal successful enactment of their arguments.

That’s a large deal, due to the fact that truthful acold AI has created conscionable arsenic overmuch chaos and slop successful the courts arsenic anyplace else. There is simply a accordant drumbeat of stories astir lawyers getting caught and sanctioned for relying connected AI tools that mention hallucinated lawsuit instrumentality that doesn’t exist, and determination person adjacent been 2 tribunal rulings retracted due to the fact that the judges appeared to usage AI tools that hallucinated the names of the plaintiffs and cited facts and and quoted cases that didn’t exist. Sean thinks it’s lone a substance of clip earlier an lawyer determination loses their licence due to the fact that of sloppy usage of AI.

So the large committedness LexisNexis is making astir Protégé is simply accuracy — that everything it produces volition beryllium based connected the existent law, and overmuch much trustworthy than a wide intent AI tool. You’ll perceive Sean explicate however LexisNexis built their AI tools and teams truthful that they tin marque that committedness — LexisNexis has hired galore much lawyers to reappraisal AI enactment than helium expected, for example.

But I besides wanted to cognize what Sean thinks tools similar Protégé volition bash to the assemblage of instrumentality itself, to the occupation of being a lawyer. If AI is doing each the ineligible probe and penning you’d usually person inferior associates doing, however volition those inferior associates larn the craft? How volition we make caller elder radical without a pipeline of inferior radical successful the weeds of the work? And if I’m submitting AI ineligible penning to a justice utilizing AI to work it, aren’t we getting adjacent to automating a small excessively overmuch of the judicial system? These are large questions, and they’re coming existent accelerated for the ineligible industry.

I besides pressed Sean beauteous hard connected however judges, peculiarly blimpish judges, are utilizing computers and exertion successful work of a judicial mentation called originalism, which states that laws tin lone mean what they meant astatine the clip they were enacted. We’ve run stories astatine The Verge astir judges letting automated linguistics systems effort and recognize the originalist intent of assorted statutes to scope their preferred outcomes, and AI is lone accelerating that inclination — particularly successful an epoch wherever virtually each portion of the Constitution appears to beryllium up for grabs earlier an incredibly partisan Supreme Court. 

So I asked Sean to demo Protégé doing immoderate ineligible probe for me, connected questions that look to beryllium settled but are recently up for grabs successful the Trump administration, similar birthright citizenship. To his credit, helium was crippled — but you tin spot however taking the institution from 1 that provides elemental probe tools to 1 that provides existent ineligible reasoning with AI volition person large implications crossed the board.

This 1 is weedsy, but it’s important. 

Okay: LexisNexis CEO Sean Fitzpatrick. Here we go.

This interrogation has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity.

Sean Fitzpatrick, you’re the CEO of LexisNexis. Welcome to Decoder.

Thank you. Great to beryllium here.

Thank you for joining me. This is my archetypal interrogation backmost from parental leave. Apologies to the assemblage if I’m rusty, but apologies to you if I’m conscionable wholly loopy.

Congratulations!

I’m precise excited to speech to you. I’m precise overmuch a failed lawyer, my woman is simply a lawyer, there’s a batch of lawyers connected The Verge team. The ineligible assemblage successful America is astatine a infinitesimal of implicit change, a batch of chaos, and an tremendous magnitude of uncertainty. And LexisNexis, if the assemblage knows, tends to beryllium astatine the bosom of what lawyers bash each day. Most lawyers are utilizing LexisNexis each infinitesimal of each day. What that merchandise is, what it tin do, and however it helps lawyers bash their occupation connects to a batch of themes that we’re seeing some successful the ineligible assemblage and successful exertion and AI generally. 

So, commencement astatine the start. What is LexisNexis? How would you explicate it to the layperson?

LexisNexis is an AI-powered supplier of information, analytics, and drafting solutions for lawyers that enactment successful instrumentality firms, corporations, and authorities entities.

That’s a caller conception of LexisNexis. When I was successful instrumentality schoolhouse successful the aboriginal 2000s, it was conscionable the happening I searched to find lawsuit law.

Yes, we’ve transformed implicit time. We were conscionable that probe provider. Over time, we’ve acquired and integrated much businesses. In 2020, erstwhile we launched our Lexis+ product, we integrated each those things together, becoming an integrated ecosystem of solutions. Then, successful 2023, we launched Lexis+ AI, and that’s erstwhile we truly became an AI-powered supplier of accusation analytics, determination tools, and drafting solutions. AI capabilities person truly allowed america to bash much things than what we’ve traditionally done successful the past

That leap from being the golden modular database of ineligible opinions, reasonings, lawsuit notes, and each that to “we’re going to bash the enactment for you oregon assistance you bash the work” is simply a large one. That’s a taste jump. Obviously, determination were immoderate acquisitions on the mode that helped you to marque that jump, which you tin speech about. What drove you to marque that jump, to say, “Actually, the lawyers request assistance drafting the motions, the projected opinions they mightiness springiness to a judge?” What made you say, “Okay, we’ve got to measurement into really doing the work?”

I deliberation it’s been a earthy evolution. As exertion has evolved, it’s opened up caller avenues of things we tin do. We thin to instrumentality the latest technology, present it to our customers, and walk clip talking to them astir however they deliberation that exertion tin beryllium champion applied successful the ineligible environment. Then, we construe the ideas they came up with into products that resoluteness oregon code those opportunities.

Let maine inquire you a beauteous philosophical question. It’s 1 that I conflict with each the time. It’s 1 that I speech to our assemblage astir each the time. I deliberation astir radical who brushwood the ineligible strategy deliberation it’s beauteous deterministic. Our assemblage is beauteous technically focused. They’re utilized to computers. Computers are, until recently, beauteous deterministic. You enactment successful immoderate inputs, you get immoderate outputs. Most radical who brushwood the ineligible strategy deliberation it’s beauteous deterministic. You enactment successful immoderate inputs and you get immoderate predictable outputs.

And what I’m ever saying is, “That’s not however it works astatine all.” You amusement up to court, the justice is successful a atrocious mood, you person nary thought what’s going to happen. You’re a large institution with an antitrust appeal, you amusement up to the three-judge appellate reappraisal board, and you person nary thought what’s going to happen. Literally thing could hap astatine immoderate time. The judicial strategy is fundamentally not deterministic. Even though it’s structured similar a computer, trying to deliberation astir it similar 1 tin get you successful each kinds of trouble. Maybe the champion illustration of this is radical connected Facebook putting the words “no copyright intended” connected the bottommost of movies. They deliberation they tin contented these magic words and the ineligible strategy is solved, and they conscionable can’t.

AI is that occupation successful a nutshell. We’re going to instrumentality a computer, marque it amended astatine earthy language. We’re going to marque the machine fundamentally not deterministic — you can’t truly foretell what an AI is going to bash — and past we’re going to use that to the fundamentally non-deterministic, quality quality of the tribunal system. Somewhere successful determination is simply a large philosophical occupation astir applying computers to the justness system. How bash you deliberation astir that?

First of all, you person these monolithic investments happening with the foundational models. Each of these hyperscalers — Microsoft, Amazon, Google — are putting successful adjacent to $100 billion. So these models conscionable proceed to get amended and amended implicit time. That’s astatine the foundational exemplary level. We don’t truly run astatine that level. We physique applications that utilize these foundational models. And astatine that level, we spot prices are dropping. We utilized to wage $20 for 1 cardinal tokens 2 years ago, and contiguous we mightiness wage 10 cents for 1 cardinal tokens. That allows america to bash things astatine velocity and astatine standard that we’ve ne'er been capable to bash before. 

And determination are a batch of things astir the instrumentality that marque these models attractive. Most of the instrumentality is language-based, and these models are truly large with connection problems. The instrumentality is precedent-based, and truthful — 

Well, that’s up for grabs. We’ll travel backmost to it.

I’ll assistance you that. You look astatine the activities that lawyers do: they draught documents, they bash research, they summarize things. The models are each truly bully astatine these types of things. So, you person this cleanable storm, with this exertion and the things lawyers bash coming together. 

Yet, erstwhile radical effort to usage these consumer-grade models, determination are each kinds of problems with them. Like you said, it’s not deterministic. You can’t conscionable enactment accusation into a machine and get an reply out. If that were the case, we wouldn’t request a tribunal system. These models are conscionable not built for the ineligible system. You can’t spell into tribunal and say, “I recovered this connected the internet.” You person to person authoritative content.

The cut-off day for GPT-4o was 2023, I believe. You request to person accusation that’s perpetually updated. Your assemblage astir apt doesn’t cognize this,, but there’s the citator, which traditionally has said, “This is bully law” oregon “It’s not bully law, it’s been overturned.” Now, it’ll archer you if it’s the instrumentality astatine each oregon if immoderate strategy conscionable made it up. These systems are probabilistic. They privation to enactment unneurotic an reply that’s astir apt right. Well, that’s not the modular we person successful legal. You can’t spell successful with thing that’s astir apt right. So, you person this full database of issues that these models don’t address. 

What we’ve tried to bash is code those with a courtroom-grade solution. Our strategy is backed by 160 cardinal documents and records. Our curated postulation is our grounding data. So can’t spell into tribunal and say, “I recovered this connected the internet,” but you tin notation to a circumstantial case. We besides person what we telephone a citator cause that’ll cheque that lawsuit to marque definite that it wasn’t fabricated by the strategy and is really inactive bully law. You tin besides look astatine the lawsuit instrumentality summary truthful you cognize what the lawsuit is about. You tin look astatine the headnotes truthful you tin spot the peculiar points of instrumentality that were addressed successful that lawsuit and spot if it’s inactive a valid case. 

Privacy is different issue. There’s a peculiar narration that exists betwixt attorneys and their clients successful that attorney-client privilege, truthful there’s immoderate privateness requirements that you request successful bid to support that. If you’re utilizing 1 of these conscionable consumer-grade models, you don’t person the level of privateness and information that you need. Transparency is different issue. You enactment a question in, you get an reply back. Well, based connected what? What was the logic that the strategy used? We unfastened up the achromatic container truthful you tin spot the logic that’s being applied. We springiness the attorneys the quality to spell successful and really alteration that. If this exemplary is getting thing wrong, the lawyer has the accidental to alteration it truthful that they get the result that they’re driving for. But, arsenic you said, the instrumentality is not deterministic. There are tons of antithetic factors that spell into this, but you request to person a strategy that’s legally driven, that’s intent built for ineligible situations successful bid to truly run successful a courtroom-type environment.

There’s 2 things I truly privation to propulsion on. Again, I was not a bully lawyer. I don’t privation to ever unreal connected the show, to you, oregon to anyone other that I was immoderate bully astatine this. But you larn a peculiar mode of reasoning successful instrumentality school, which is simply a beauteous rigorous, structured mode of approaching a problem, going to find the applicable cases and precedents, and past trying to manner immoderate solution based connected that. That feels similar we’re conscionable moving words around, but it’s really a mode of thinking. Before AI showed up, we would mash unneurotic utilizing a connection processor and reasoning a definite way. Now, we’re pulling them apart. We’re saying that the machine tin determination the words astir and make immoderate thinking. So, that’s 1 happening I privation to propulsion on. I’m precise funny astir that due to the fact that it feels similar the lawyering portion of being a lawyer is being subsumed into a system, and that mightiness alteration however we lawyer. 

The different portion is if anyone is going to look astatine the enactment being done. We’re already seeing lawyers get sanctioned for filing briefs with hallucinated lawsuit citations successful them. There was conscionable a lawsuit where, I believe, a tribunal had to rescind an sentiment due to the fact that it had a hallucinated lawsuit citation successful it. This is bad. This is conscionable straightforwardly a menace to the strategy and however we mightiness deliberation astir lawyers, judges, and courts. It’s not wide to maine that anyone’s going to usage the tools arsenic rigorously arsenic you want.

So connected the 1 manus there’s “We’ve made the reasoning easier.” On the different hand, it’s, “Oh, boy, everyone’s going to get truly lazy.” They’re some successful your answer. They’re some saying, “We’re making it easier to look astatine this stuff. We’re making it faster to bash the research.” I’m conscionable wondering wherever you deliberation the reasoning comes in.

I don’t deliberation that these models regenerate the lawyers. I deliberation they assistance the lawyer and augment what the lawyer does. So, if you deliberation astir an enactment that a lawyer mightiness bash — let’s accidental they were preparing for a deposition. They request to travel up with a database of questions that they’re going to inquire the idiosyncratic that’s being deposed. You tin instrumentality the facts astir that peculiar case, load them into a vault, and constituent the strategy to that vault and say, “Based connected the facts of this peculiar matter, make a database of deposition questions.” That’s thing that a lawyer would’ve done connected their own. In the past, they whitethorn person referred to a database of questions that they had antecedently oregon thing —

Actually, tin I conscionable drawback that example? Maybe a lawyer would’ve done that, but much often a lawyer would’ve told a clump of inferior associates to beryllium successful the basement and bash that. That was however those inferior associates learned however to bash their job. That’s what I mean. We’re farming retired the thinking, and immoderate radical mightiness ne'er really bash that thinking. That mightiness alteration the assemblage down the enactment successful truly substantive ways.

Right. It is an apprentice system. So, if you commencement to instrumentality immoderate of the layers retired of the bottom, however does everyone skip the bottommost furniture and inactive marque it to the 2nd with the aforesaid capabilities and skills? That’s a existent challenge. I deliberation the systems are allowing lawyers to not person the subordinate bash that work. Now they tin say, “Generate maine 300 oregon 700 questions.” It doesn’t instrumentality that agelong to spell done 700 questions, and the models ne'er get tired. From our experience, they’ll spell done that database of questions and say, “First question? Yep, that’s a bully question. I would’ve thought of that.” The strategy made it a small spot faster, but it didn’t truly assistance them. Second question, aforesaid thing. Third question, aforesaid thing. Fourth question doesn’t adjacent marque immoderate sense, scratch it disconnected the list. With the 5th question they’ll say, “Oh, that’s interesting, I wouldn’t person thought to inquire that but that’s astir apt important, truthful I’m going to adhd that to my list.” So, there’s an ratio constituent to it, but I deliberation there’s besides a amended result component. 

In presumption of the apprenticeship piece, I deliberation radical are struggling close present to fig retired however that’s going to interaction the apprenticeship model. Someone was describing to maine that they had worked connected a concern wherever they were looking astatine securitized assets. When they were an associate, they did this task for a institution that had 50 states worthy of coverage, and truthful they became the adept successful the steadfast connected plus securitization successful each 50 states. For 4 oregon 5 years, anytime idiosyncratic had a question, they came to that individual. It was a large mode to marque a career. Now, the strategy tin bash each that accusation for you. So his question was: “How is that ever going to hap present successful this caller world?” 

I deliberation firms are going to conflict with that, but I besides deliberation they’re going to fig it out. We thin to get immoderate of the smartest and brightest radical going into the ineligible profession, and truthful far, they look to person figured retired each situation that’s faced the industry. I deliberation they’ll fig this 1 retired arsenic well.

What are immoderate solutions you’ve seen arsenic radical effort to fig this out?

I don’t cognize that folks person travel up with a batch of solutions astir the apprenticeship model. What we’re for definite seeing is that radical are embracing AI. It’s here, it’s successful the courtroom, it’s successful the instrumentality firm. Two-thirds of attorneys are utilizing AI successful their work, according to our surveys, and our survey’s astir apt a small outdated. I’d accidental the number’s astir apt higher. I don’t cognize astir you, but I usage AI each day.  It’s present successful my idiosyncratic and enactment lives. I deliberation the ineligible assemblage is perfectly suited for it, truthful it’s lone going to expand.

When you spot the lawyers getting sanctioned and the courts having to rescind opinions, is determination a solution that involves utilizing LexisNexis truthful it won’t hap to you? Or bash you deliberation that’s a grounds of thing else? Everyone’s conscionable utilizing AI, I get it. Probably the biggest divided for our assemblage close present is betwixt the information that says everyone’s utilizing this worldly each the clip and the hostility our assemblage expresses astir the tools, their quality, and the information that a batch of that usage is driven by large companies conscionable putting it successful beforehand of them. There’s thing happening where, to warrant these tremendous investments, the tools are showing up whether the consumers are asking for them oregon not, and past we’re pointing retired that everyone’s utilizing the tools.

What I perceive from our assemblage is, “Well, I can’t crook disconnected the AI overview. Of people I’m utilizing the instrumentality due to the fact that it’s conscionable successful beforehand of maine each the time. I can’t marque Microsoft Office halt telling maine that it’s going to assistance me. It’s conscionable successful beforehand of maine each the time.” So, erstwhile you spot the errors being made successful the ineligible strategy contiguous — the lawyers getting sanctioned, the lazy AI use, the deficiency of apprenticeship that’s going to interaction the full adjacent procreation of lawyers and however rigorous they are —  however bash you marque your merchandise code that? Or are you conscionable not reasoning astir that close now?

No, we’re decidedly reasoning astir it, and we’ve incorporated things into our product. These things ever marque the headlines erstwhile they happen, but I deliberation it’s a tiny percent of attorneys that are causing these problems. Just taking thing and bringing it into tribunal has ne'er been the standard. You’ve ever had the work arsenic a lawyer to cheque the worldly and marque definite that it’s valid earlier going into court. And immoderate individuals aren’t doing that. We surely saw that successful the [Tim] Burke case wherever immoderate attorneys submitted a papers to the tribunal that I deliberation had 8 citations successful it and 7 of them were conscionable wholly — 

But that was inevitable. The time ChatGPT showed up, fractional of the ineligible pundits I cognize were like, “This is inevitable. This result volition happen,” and past it happened. There wasn’t adjacent a stutter step. It conscionable happened immediately. That’s what I’m trying to propulsion on. Is the solution conscionable that LexisNexis has a instrumentality that’s amended and you should wage for it, oregon is the assemblage going to person to physique immoderate caller guardrails arsenic we instrumentality the rigor distant from the younger associates?

Well, you tin ne'er halt an lawyer from taking it into tribunal and not doing the due work. That’s going to proceed to happen. I deliberation somebody’s going to suffer their licence implicit this astatine immoderate point. We’re seeing the sanctions commencement to ratchet up. So, a couple attorneys got fined $5,000 a piece, and past immoderate attorneys successful national tribunal down successful Alabama got referred to the authorities barroom relation for disciplinary action. I deliberation the stakes are expanding and increasing. What we bash with our strategy is supply a nexus to a citation if we person it, truthful you tin click connected it and spot it successful our system.

And there’s nary fabricated cases wrong our system. We person a postulation mechanics that ensures that each lawsuit successful determination is valid. It’s shepardized and has headnotes and antithetic tools that lawyers tin use. So, we marque it truly casual for you to usage our strategy to cheque and marque definite that the citations you’re bringing into tribunal are not lone valid and inactive bully instrumentality but are besides successful the close format. Format is important. We cheque for each these things and marque it truly casual for the lawyer to bash the enactment they request to do. They request to marque definite that lawsuit is connected point, that the lawsuit is inactive valid.

One of the galore reasons I was a horrible lawyer was due to the fact that of that infinitesimal erstwhile you get your archetypal instrumentality steadfast occupation and you recognize your brag conscionable has a room of their favourite motions connected file. They’re conscionable going to propulsion from the paper catalog, alteration immoderate names and dates, and record the motion. The justice volition admit the question and the attorney, and this is each conscionable a weird formality to get done the adjacent signifier of the process. Maybe we’ll ne'er get to the substantive portion of the lawsuit due to the fact that we’re conscionable going to settee it, but we request to record this question we had and elaborate. This genuinely was demoralizing. I was like, “I’m conscionable doing paperwork. There’s thing astir this that is real.”

I’m astir apt describing what each archetypal twelvemonth subordinate goes done until the cheque hits, and it conscionable didn’t enactment for me. How adjacent are you to having Lexus AI conscionable bash that thing, person it admit the infinitesimal and say, “We person the banked question and we’re conscionable going to record it to a system?”

Well, we tin link into a papers absorption strategy (DMS) that has an attorney’s anterior motions. We person our vault capabilities, truthful they tin load their motions up. They tin inactive usage the motions they’ve already developed. And that’s a perfectly good mode to bash things due to the fact that —

Well, I’m saying, from scratch.

Right. We person the quality to bash it from scratch too, but a batch of attorneys don’t privation to bash it from scratch due to the fact that they’ve reviewed each azygous connection successful that question and they cognize that it’s good. If they bash it from scratch, past they person to reappraisal each azygous word. But if they privation to bash it from scratch, we tin bash that for them today, and if they want, we tin usage their anterior enactment merchandise arsenic the grounding contented to make a caller motion, oregon we tin usage our authoritative material. They tin take the root and the grounding content.

I conjecture I’m asking what level of automation is there. So, you’re an attorney. You’ve got a papers absorption system, you’ve got a caller client, and you request to record immoderate standardized question that you ever record for immoderate happening you request to do, similar a continuance. At what constituent does Lexis [AI] say, “I’m watching this case. I’m going to record this for you. I’m conscionable going to deed the buttons for you. Don’t interest astir it,” successful the mode that a large ineligible adjunct mightiness do?

We’re ever going to springiness the lawyer the opportunity. We don’t privation to conscionable beryllium doing things connected their behalf unsupervised, truthful we’re going to springiness them the opportunity. We could get to the constituent wherever we say, “It looks similar you request a continuance. Here’s a draught of a continuance push,” and it volition automatically record it. We’re not astatine that constituent today, but if you request a continuance, we could draught it for you. Our imaginativeness is that each lawyer is going to person their ain personalized AI assistant, and it’s going to recognize their signifier country and their jurisdiction, on with having entree to their anterior enactment product. The systems are lone arsenic bully arsenic the contented down them, truthful it’s going to person entree to our 160 cardinal documents and records, and it’s going to beryllium capable to automate tasks that they bash today. If you deliberation astir each the antithetic types of attorneys and each the antithetic tasks that they perform, there’s astir apt 10,000 tasks that could beryllium automated. 

So, we’re moving with our customers to recognize what the astir important tasks are, and we’re moving with them to automate those tasks today. We person the largest and astir robust backlog of projects that we’ve ever had successful our company’s past due to the fact that determination are truthful galore of things that tin inactive beryllium automated, and we’re moving with our customers to bash that. If they archer us, “What we truly privation is for you to automatically record this” oregon for america to supply them with an alert that says, “Hey, this deadline is coming up and you request to record this. Here’s a draft. Do you privation to record it?” I’m definite we tin make it.

We’re not astatine that constituent today, but we are successful the drafting phase. That imaginativeness is not a five-year imaginativeness oregon a three-year vision, that’s disposable today. That’s Protégé. That’s what Protégé does today. There are tasks that it tin do, but we haven’t finished that monolithic backlog yet.

If you look astatine the expanse of different CEOs who’ve been connected Decoder, they’re going to archer you, “You conscionable integrate our machine imaginativeness strategy and we’ll usage [electronic lawsuit files] for you to record this motion.” They’ll each beryllium precise blessed to merchantability you that product, I’m sure. 

The crushed I’m asking it this mode is due to the fact that erstwhile I get the user AI CEOs connected the show, they emotion to archer maine that they’re going to constitute my emails for maine with AI, and past the adjacent condemnation they accidental is, “Then, we’ll benignant your inbox with AI.” At immoderate point, the robots are conscionable penning emails to each different and I’m speechmaking summaries. Something precise important has been mislaid successful that chain. One of the funniest outcomes of AI is my iPhone abruptly conscionable summarizing emails and generating emails for different iPhones to summarize, and I person nary thought what’s going on. 

That’s atrocious successful the ineligible context. We’re automating papers procreation to marque the lawsuit for our clients. On the different side, the judges and clerks mightiness beryllium utilizing these aforesaid tools to ingest the cases, summarize them, recognize the arguments, and constitute the opinions that are the outcomes. Culturally, I deliberation it’s important for you to person a constituent of presumption connected wherever that should halt due to the fact that different we are conscionable going to person a afloat automated justness strategy of LLMs talking to each other. Maybe there’ll beryllium immoderate guardrails that different radical don’t have, but we’ve taken an tremendous magnitude of humans retired of the loop.

I deliberation you person to person the quality successful the loop.  It’s an important portion of the process. I could spot the bots going backmost and distant connected things similar if idiosyncratic says, “Hey, tin you conscionable astatine 9 o’clock?” and your strategy opens up the calendar, says you’re disposable to conscionable this idiosyncratic connected your precocious precedence list, and sets up the meeting. When you’re talking astir substantive ineligible matters, the stakes are excessively high. You’re talking astir a disabled seasoned getting oregon not getting their benefits. You’re talking astir a unfortunate of a earthy catastrophe getting oregon not getting security proceeds. You’re talking astir a azygous parent getting oregon not getting payment benefits. These are each ineligible matters, and they truly person a immense interaction connected people’s lives. The stakes are mode excessively precocious for bots to beryllium going backmost and distant and sharing information.

Do you deliberation that clerks and judges should beryllium utilizing AI the aforesaid mode lawyers should be? That’s wherever I would gully the line. I deliberation the clerk should beryllium made to work and construe everything arsenic humans, and the judges should beryllium made to constitute everything arsenic humans, but it doesn’t look similar that enactment has been formalized anywhere.

I don’t deliberation a justice should constitute each line. I deliberation that they could usage AI. It’s large erstwhile you enactment concepts in, enactment the words astir that conception and operation them successful an orderly way. I deliberation that determination is simply a constituent of the enactment that could beryllium done by AI, but it shouldn’t beryllium a bot talking to a bot. I don’t deliberation it should beryllium afloat outsourced to AI. You’ve got a work arsenic a judge, arsenic a instrumentality clerk, arsenic a lawyer to reappraisal that papers and marque definite it’s really saying what you mean it to say.I deliberation astir attorneys are utilizing it that way. It volition make a large draft, possibly astatine 80 percent, which allows you to bash 20 percent of the work. But that 20 percent is the deep, analytical thought work, the things you really went to instrumentality schoolhouse to bash arsenic opposed to what you were describing earlier. It’s going to let lawyers to bash much of that benignant of work.

I’m funny to spot however antithetic jurisdictions and circuits attack the question of what the judges and clerks should beryllium doing.  I consciousness that that unit is going to explicit itself successful antithetic ways crossed the field. 

Judges are becoming forensic auditors. They’re reviewing this accusation looking for fake cases. We don’t privation them doing that. That should not beryllium their job. I deliberation things bash request to alteration successful immoderate of these areas.

Using AI to drawback AI is different taxable that comes up connected Decoder all the time. 

I person utterly forgotten to inquire you the Decoder questions. So fto maine bash that, and past I privation to zoom retired a small spot farther. These are my ain questions. You tin tell, I’m a small rusty.

I’m looking astatine the LexisNexis enactment structure, it’s precise complicated. There’s a CEO who’s not you, Mike Walsh, but past you’re the CEO of the US and the UK. There’s a clump of different VPs everywhere. You’ve got a genitor institution called RELX. Explain however LexisNexis is structured and however your portion fits into it.

RELX is the genitor company, and it’s publically traded. It has 4 divisions. Legal and Professional is 1 of those divisions, and its CEO is Mike Walsh. I study to Mike. I’m the CEO of our North America, UK, and Ireland businesses. The mode that we’re organized, it’s a matrix. We spell to marketplace based connected lawsuit segments. So, we person a ample instrumentality business, a tiny instrumentality business, a firm ineligible business, a national authorities business, a authorities and section authorities business, a Canadian business, and a UK business. 

Then, we person functional groups that enactment that. So, we person merchandise management, and they’re liable for our merchandise improvement roadmap and the merchandise strategy. We person an engineering team, and they instrumentality the absorption from merchandise absorption but really physique the products. We person functional groups that enactment that, finance, HR, legal, and planetary operations that does things similar cod contented for us. Once you get utilized to it, it’s not that analyzable of a structure. It’s truly good integrated and seamlessly integrated together, which allows america to run truly quickly. We tin get things done rapidly and efficiently. And I would accidental that the full process is lawsuit driven.

I’m truly funny successful the structure, peculiarly the information that you person the UK, Ireland, and North America. I’m fascinated by firm structures, and 1 of the things that strikes maine is that you are not successful power of the taxonomy of your product, right? These countries’ governments are successful power of the taxonomy of their ineligible systems. The English ineligible strategy and the American ineligible strategy person commonalities but wildly antithetic structures. The Canadian ineligible strategy and the US ineligible strategy person wildly antithetic structures. Canada really has much successful communal with the UK fixed their shared history. How bash you deliberation astir that? Are those antithetic teams? Do they person antithetic database structures? How does each that work?

We bash person antithetic teams and antithetic database structures, but we’re really trying to consolidate to the grade that we tin due to the fact that erstwhile we person akin things, we shouldn’t person them marked up otherwise successful antithetic databases. Getting them marked up successful a accordant mode volition let america to bash what we telephone “extreme reuse,” which is to fundamentally usage that aforesaid exertion we make successful aggregate jurisdictions with constricted changes to that system. What that allows america to bash is truly absorption connected that halfway strategy and rotation it retired quickly, truthful that everyone crossed the satellite gets the benefits of each those changes. But you person civilian instrumentality successful immoderate jurisdictions and communal instrumentality successful others, and the laws are structured successful antithetic ways. So, you bash person things that marque that much challenging, but that’s the wide thought down what we’re trying to do.

Can you use the aforesaid AI systems to these antithetic ineligible systems successful the aforesaid way, oregon are you actively localizing them differently?

I would accidental that we actively localize them, but we effort to minimize the magnitude of enactment that we bash due to the fact that a batch of it tin beryllium done successful a akin way.

Generally, there’s a batch of interest astir American ineligible precedents traveling crossed the ocean, peculiarly successful the UK. You tin spot the American civilization warfare gets exported and shows up successful a batch of antithetic ways. Do you deliberation your instrumentality volition marque that amended oregon worse? If you’re not pulling them isolated and are really trying to minimize the differences, you mightiness spot repetition arguments oregon repetition structures conscionable based connected the mode the AI works.

Each 1 is based connected the contented of the idiosyncratic jurisdiction. So, we don’t premix the content, but we bash effort to utilize the aforesaid technology. For example, there’s hunt relevance exertion to find the lawsuit that’s astir intimately associated with the substance that idiosyncratic is moving on. We tin instrumentality that and physique it for the US marketplace oregon the UK market, and past we tin determination it to different marketplace and it volition enactment beauteous well. Then, we request to bash immoderate modifications to marque it enactment truly good for that peculiar jurisdiction. We get 80 percent of the DNA transferred implicit successful that halfway model.

I was recently talking to Mike Krieger, who is the main merchandise serviceman of Anthropic — conscionable a wholly antithetic speech connected a antithetic happening — but helium said this happening to me, which is stuck successful my mind. He said, “I admit Claude, I tin spot Claude’s writing.” He said, “That’s my boy,” which is cute. Does your AI person a personality? Can I admit its penning successful each these antithetic jurisdictions?

We usage a multi-model approach, and truthful it’s astir apt a small little wide which peculiar exemplary drove something. Of people with agentic AI, things person truly changed. I deliberation that was astir apt existent a twelvemonth and a fractional ago, but present with agentic AI, erstwhile idiosyncratic puts successful a query… let’s accidental they wanted to draught a document. Maybe a lawsuit is sending successful a petition and she’s funny successful a premises liability contented astir the work to pass a trespasser astir a unsafe information connected a portion of land. The query volition spell into a readying agent, who volition past allocate that query retired to different agents. 

It needs to bash immoderate heavy research, truthful possibly it uses OpenAI o3  due to the fact that it’s truly bully astatine heavy research. At the end, it needs to draught a document, truthful possibly it uses Claude 3 Opus, which is truly bully astatine drafting. We’re exemplary agnostic, and we’ll usage immoderate exemplary is champion successful a peculiar task. So, the effect you get backmost was really perchance done by aggregate antithetic models, which astir apt makes it a small spot harder conscionable to spot if it was drafted by OpenAI.

Is that reflected successful your structure? You picture engineering, product, and your localization, but you’ve got to physique that agentic orchestration furniture and determine which models are champion for each purpose. You could plan an engineering enactment astir that occupation specifically. Is that however you’ve done it oregon is that done differently?

We person an engineering squad that focuses connected the planner cause and the duty of the tasks to antithetic agents.

Is that wherever the bulk of your concern is oregon is it paying the token fees?

I haven’t really breached it retired that way, truthful I couldn’t archer you. The token fees are surely an important portion of the investment. Engineering is simply a immense information of the investment. The attorneys that we prosecute to reappraisal the output and archer america if it’s bully oregon not bully are a monolithic portion of the investment. So, it’s dispersed retired implicit galore antithetic things, but we’ve surely spent a batch of wealth connected that peculiar issue.

Tell maine astir those attorneys. You prosecute attorneys to fundamentally bash papers reappraisal of the AI? Are they precise elder attorneys? Are they moonlighting from large firms? Are they a clump of inferior associates successful a basement?

It’s based connected the task. What we effort to bash is get attorneys that person acquisition successful a peculiar matter. So, if we’re looking astatine documents related to a mergers and acquisitions transaction, we privation those to beryllium looked astatine by idiosyncratic who has immoderate acquisition successful mergers and acquisitions. They tin archer america that the papers looks great, oregon archer america if it’s missing peculiar things. Then, we tin spell backmost and say, “Why did we miss those peculiar things and what changes bash we request to marque to however we’re grooming and directing these models to close that concern going forward?”

What’s the biggest happening you’ve learned from that process?

The biggest happening I’ve learned is however important it is to person attorneys doing that work. I expected to prosecute a batch of method radical and information scientists to bash this work. I didn’t truly expect to prosecute an service of attorneys. But I deliberation 1 of the concealed condiment components of our solution is that our outputs are lawyer reviewed. That’s however we support getting much applicable results.

Where were you champion astatine to commencement with and wherever were you worst astatine to commencement with? 

We weren’t truly bully astatine thing to statesman with, and I deliberation we’re gathering things out. Sometimes it’s a signifier area, sometimes it’s a task. If you look astatine each the antithetic tasks attorneys bash that we were talking astir earlier, successful galore cases the task’s output is immoderate benignant of a document. So, we’re truly focused close present connected however to amended our papers drafting.

Is each this gross affirmative yet? Are you making wealth connected each this concern oregon bash you spot that connected the horizon?

Our maturation complaint is decidedly accelerated arsenic a effect of this. The main happening that we’re focused connected is the lawsuit outcome. What we’re seeing is that the customers are getting happier and happier with the solution, truthful I would accidental that it’s been precise palmy successful that regard. It’s the fastest increasing merchandise that we’ve ever had.

Growing accelerated but losing wealth with each query is bad, right?

We’re not there. We’re not losing wealth with each query.

Are you breaking adjacent oregon are you making money?

Out nett is growing.

Specifically connected AI tools, oregon overall?

Most of our concern is successful AI tools.

Let maine instrumentality the past spot present and zoom retired adjacent much broadly. I mentioned that I would bring up precedent again successful this conversation. 

I deliberation if you’re paying attraction to the ineligible strategy of America close now, you cognize that it’s beauteous overmuch successful a authorities of axenic upheaval. You’ve got territory tribunal judges calling retired the Supreme Court, which is not a happening that usually happens. You person a Supreme Court that is overturning precedents successful a mode that makes maine consciousness similar I learned thing successful instrumentality school. Chevron deference is retired the door. Humphrey’s Executor, the instrumentality that keeps the president from firing FTC commissioners is, I’m guessing, retired the door. Roe v. Wade was out the door. Just these foundational precedents of American instrumentality retired the door.

A batch of that is based connected what blimpish judges would telephone originalism. I person a batch of feelings astir originalism, but a large inclination wrong of originalism is utilizing AI, oregon what they telephone “corpus linguistics,” to find what radical meant successful the past. Then, you instrumentality the AI and you say, “Well, it did the occupation for me. This is the answer.” Are you disquieted that your tools volition beryllium utilized for that benignant of effort? Because it truly puts a batch of unit connected the AI instrumentality to recognize a batch of things.

I’m not that worried. I don’t deliberation the Supreme Court is asking LexisNexis what we deliberation it should do.

But surely courts up and down the concatenation are.

They’re asking ineligible questions, they’re getting answers back, and past they’re interpreting those answers. We are providing them with the earthy contented that they request to marque the determinations, but we’re not practicing law. We’re not making those decisions for them.

I’m going to outpouring this connected you, but present it is: John Bush is simply a Trump-appointed judge. He cited the emergence of corpus linguistics successful the ineligible field, and he said, “To bash originalism, I indispensable undertake the highly laborious and time-consuming process of sifting done each this. But what if AI were employed to bash each the reappraisal of the hits and compile statistic connected connection gathering and usage? If the AI could beryllium trusted, that would marque the occupation overmuch easier.”

That is him saying, “I tin outsource originalist reasoning to an AI.” This is simply a trend. I spot this peculiarly with the originalist judges, that the occupation they deliberation they’re meant to bash is find what a connection meant successful the past. And AI is large astatine being like, “Statistically, this is what that connection meant successful the past, and we’re going to outsource immoderate ineligible reasoning.”

This is, I think, precise odd. My thoughts astir originalism and stare decisis successful America successful 2025 aside, saying, “I volition usage an AI to scope into the past and find this meaning” seems precise odd. I’m wondering however you consciousness astir your instrumentality being utilized successful that way.

I decidedly recognize your constituent there. I deliberation astir the analogy of a brick. You tin usage a ceramic to physique a infirmary and instrumentality attraction of sick children, oregon you could instrumentality a ceramic and propulsion it done a window. One usage is truly large and different is beauteous negative, but successful either case, it’s a brick. I deliberation astir our instrumentality arsenic being neither bully nor bad. I deliberation it could beryllium utilized for good. I deliberation it could beryllium utilized for immoderate benignant of enactment that attorneys [need]. I wouldn’t privation to accidental originalism is simply a atrocious thing. I deliberation it could beryllium utilized for galore antithetic things. I deliberation it could beryllium utilized for originalism. I deliberation it could beryllium adjuvant for those who privation to instrumentality that way and find a caller mode of looking astatine something.

We person each the data. They tin hunt it, they tin usage the instrumentality to find things it wasn’t imaginable to find successful the past. So, I could spot them utilizing our instrumentality successful that way. I conjecture it’s up to the attorneys to find however they’re going to usage the product. We’re not gathering it due to the fact that we’re trying to alteration the law. We’re gathering it due to the fact that we’re trying to assistance attorneys bash the tasks that they privation to do.

But I look astatine the expanse of the tech manufacture — not the ineligible industry, but the tech manufacture — implicit the past 15, 20 years, and boy, person I heard that reply many, galore times. The societal media companies each said, “Well, you tin usage it for bully oregon evil. We’re neutral platforms.” It turns retired possibly they should person thought of immoderate of those harms earlier.

Look astatine the AI companies today. Who knows if grooming is copyrighted. We cognize the answer. You can’t really conscionable opt retired of copyright law. Now, we’re going to bash the lawsuits and we’ll spot what happens. Who knows if OpenAI doing Sora, which is TikTok for deepfakes — actually, we know. We cognize the reply is, you should person immoderate guardrails. 

So, I’m posing you the aforesaid question. We spot a peculiarly originalist judiciary hell-bent connected utilizing originalism to alteration precedent astatine alarming rates. I would accidental it’s alarming for maine due to the fact that I paid for a instrumentality grade that I present deliberation is useless, but that’s wherefore it’s alarming to me. It’s alarming due to the fact that a batch of radical person had their rights taken distant arsenic well. Every time this is happening. And 1 of the ways they’re going to bash that is to defer to an AI determination engine. They’re going to say, “We asked the AI, ‘What did “all people” mean erstwhile the 14th Amendment was drafted?’” and this volition beryllium however we get to a birthright citizenship case. I’m conscionable connecting this to the speech we had astatine the beginning. We’re going to springiness our reasoning to a machine successful a mode that it’s not needfully accountable for, and we’re going to spot the computer. The methods of reasoning and that rigor mightiness spell away. 

So I’ve heard the reply that the instrumentality is neutral from tech companies for years, and I’ve seen the outcomes. I’m asking you. You’re gathering a tech merchandise for lawyers, and they’re already utilizing it successful this circumstantial way. I’m wondering if you’ve thought astir the guardrails.

We run nether liable AI principles, and that includes a fig of things. One, we ever effort to see the real-world implications of immoderate merchandise we develop. We privation to marque definite that there’s transparency successful presumption of however our merchandise works. We unfastened up the achromatic container truthful radical tin spot the logic that we’re using, and they tin really spell successful and alteration it if they want. So, we privation to marque definite that there’s transparency and there’s control. 

We ever incorporated quality oversight into merchandise development. Privacy and information is different 1 of our halfway tenets successful liable AI creation. Another happening we’ve incorporated is the prevention of bias introduction. So, those are the RELX principles for AI development, and we adhere to those. We privation to make products that bash bully things for the world.

If you asked Lexis AI if the 14th Amendment guarantees birthright citizenship to each radical calved successful the United States, volition it marque the statement that it doesn’t?

I’ve ne'er asked it that question. I can’t archer you.

Do you person your telephone connected you? There’s a mobile app.

I could popular up present and inquire it, I suppose. Let maine popular into Protégé here. “Does the 14th Amendment warrant birthright citizenship oregon are determination exceptions?” Let’s see.

It’s generating a response, truthful we tin travel backmost to it successful a minute.

I’m precise funny to spot what it says, due to the fact that up until precocious there’s lone been 1 reply to that question. Now, the Trump medication is saying, “Nope, actually, that’s not what ‘subject to the jurisdiction thereof’ means.” In bid to triumph astatine the Supreme Court, they volition have to conception an originalist statement to that question, and I americium assured that the mode they’re going to bash that is by feeding a clump of information into an AI exemplary and saying, “This is what was really meant astatine the clip of the 14th Amendment’s drafting.” That’s a happening that AI volition beryllium utilized for that is precise destructive.

I’m not an attorney, truthful I’m conscionable going to work the reply here:

“The 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution guarantees birthright citizenship to each persons calved oregon naturalized successful the United States, and taxable to its jurisdiction. The operation ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ has been interpreted to see astir each individuals calved connected US ungraded with a fewer constrictive exceptions. These exceptions see overseas diplomats, children of overseas diplomats, children of force forces successful hostile occupation, children calved connected overseas nationalist ships, and, historically, children of members of Native American tribes who owed allegiance to their people alternatively than the United States.”

It goes on.

You should nonstop that to [Chief Justice] John Roberts close now. Can Protégé bash that? Because that’s the answer. 

The question is, are a clump of blimpish influencers going to accidental Protégé is woke now? This is the taste warfare that you’re in.

It does admit that “recent cases person affirmed this mentation rejecting attempts to grow the exceptions of birthright citizenship,” truthful it does besides admit that determination person been efforts to construe it differently. The reply goes connected rather a bit.

The crushed I inquire that question precise specifically is due to the fact that Reconstruction is up for grabs successful a precise existent mode successful this case. Do you deliberation you person a work arsenic the instrumentality maker? That’s truly the question for truthful galore AI companies. You’re the instrumentality maker. Do you person a work to not deepfake existent people? Do you person a work to not amusement radical fake ideas? I deliberation you were precise wide connected that, you person a work to not hallucinate, but present you person —

We don’t privation to present oregon perpetuate immoderate bias that mightiness beryllium either. And to bash that, we trust connected the instrumentality arsenic opposed to a consumer-grade exemplary that astir apt conscionable uses quality articles, which mightiness person a precise antithetic mentation of things depending connected the quality articles. There are overmuch much apt to beryllium biases from introduced quality articles than black-letter law, for example.

The crushed I’m funny astir that is due to the fact that there’s a spectrum. I don’t deliberation there’s immoderate spot for telling radical what they tin bash with Microsoft Word moving locally connected their laptop. Do what you’ve got to do. Telling radical what they tin bash with a consumer-grade AI instrumentality built into Facebook? I deliberation Facebook has a batch of work there, particularly due to the fact that the accidental to administer that contented acold and wide is astatine their fingertips.

That’s a large accidental spectrum, and present successful the mediate there’s these AI companies. Do you person the work to say, “Well, if you privation to spell marque the statement that birthright citizenship doesn’t support everyone successful the United States, you’ve got to bash that connected your own. Our robot’s not going to assistance you.” Do you consciousness immoderate of that pressure?

We effort not to get into authorities oregon immoderate of that debate.

I bash not deliberation that’s politics.

We’re trying to make a strategy that does not person bias introduced into it, that volition springiness you the facts, and attorneys tin bash the enactment that attorneys bash to marque those important decisions. Our occupation is to springiness them the accusation that they need: the precedents, the facts, each the accusation that they request to past make their argument, immoderate that mightiness be. But we truly don’t get into immoderate of the authorities of birthright citizenship being guaranteed oregon not.

Well, astatine immoderate constituent you do. This is — again, to bring america backmost wherever we started, I archetypal encountered LexisNexis arsenic a database of cases and immoderate lawsuit notes. There were immoderate instrumentality professors who were precise arrogant that their lawsuit notes were successful LexisNexis erstwhile I was successful instrumentality school. Now we’re drafting a small bit, going to spell bash the research. Now we person a agentic AI that’s making the arguments. Maybe 1 time we volition automate each the mode to filing. You’re taking connected much of the burden. You are making the arguments. The institution is making the arguments. Where is the line? Because determination are tons of lawyers who wouldn’t instrumentality that case, who wouldn’t marque that argument. Is determination a enactment for you?

I would accidental our attack is to limb the attorneys with the champion imaginable information, and assistance them with the drafting of those documents. We’re truly conscionable being led by our customers and what they’re asking america to do. We surely are not trying to construe the law. We’re not trying to signifier the ineligible system. We’re not lawyers. We’re not trying to bash the enactment of lawyers. We’re trying to assistance lawyers bash the enactment they bash successful a much businesslike mode and, hopefully, assistance them thrust amended outcomes. 

But it’s ever their prerogative to construe the accusation that we provide, which is what lawyers do. That’s what they’re large at. The crushed we person cases is due to the fact that determination are radical connected some sides. The 2 individuals are going to marque other arguments, we privation to enactment some of those attorneys arsenic champion that we can.

I get it erstwhile you’re the database of cases. I get it erstwhile you’re the connection processor. I get it erstwhile you’re the specialized connection processor oregon the lawsuit absorption platform. The happening that I’m pushing connected repeatedly present is if the AI strategy is really doing the work, bash you consciousness similar you person antithetic guardrails?

I deliberation our work is to make AI successful a liable way.

Give maine an illustration of thing you wouldn’t fto your AI bash — an statement that you wouldn’t fto your AI make, oregon a question that you wouldn’t fto your AI draft.

I don’t cognize that we would privation to needfully restrict the AI successful that way. We’re referring backmost to the accusation that we have, which is our authoritative postulation of documents and materials that helps lawyers recognize what the facts are, what the precedent is, and what the inheritance is, truthful they tin bash the real, heavy ineligible enactment and marque those trade-off decisions, judgement decisions, the important things that, again, attorneys went to instrumentality schoolhouse to do.

I deliberation these questions are going to travel up implicit and implicit again. We should person you backmost to reply them arsenic you larn more. As you look retired implicit the skyline — the adjacent 2 oregon 3 years — what’s the adjacent acceptable of capabilities you spot for LexisNexis, and what bash you deliberation the pressures that mightiness alteration however you marque immoderate of those decisions volition be?

It’s hard to accidental precisely what the main happening that’s going to alteration the way going guardant is going to look similar due to the fact that if I look backmost 2 years ago, I would’ve ne'er guessed we’d beryllium doing what we’re doing contiguous due to the fact that the exertion didn’t beryllium oregon it was excessively costly to implement. That’s wholly changed implicit the past 2 years, and I deliberation implicit the adjacent 2 years, it’s going to alteration again. So, it’s truly hard to accidental wherever we’re going to go. Our imaginativeness remains the same, which is that we privation to assistance attorneys. We privation to supply them with a personalized, AI-powered merchandise that understands their signifier area, their jurisdiction. It has entree to our authoritative acceptable of materials and their anterior enactment product. It understands their preferences, it understands their style, it understands what they’re trying to do, and it tin automate tasks that they bash contiguous manually.

We volition proceed to instrumentality that latest disposable technology, amusement it to our customers, and person them assistance america recognize however we tin usage that exertion to service them successful much modern and applicable ways. That’s truly what’s going to usher our roadmap successful the future.

Sean, this was great. Let maine cognize erstwhile you make a strategy that tin really navigate an physics lawsuit filing website due to the fact that immoderate of the smartest radical I cognize can’t bash that. But this was great. We’ve got to person you backmost soon. Thank you truthful much.

Thank you truthful much. I truly enjoyed our clip today. Take care.

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