Google CEO Sundar Pichai on the future of search, AI agents, and selling Chrome

Today, I’m talking with Alphabet and Google CEO Sundar Pichai. We recorded this speech successful idiosyncratic aft the Google I/O developer league past week successful what’s becoming a spot of a Decoder tradition. This is the 3rd twelvemonth that we’ve done Decoder after I/O, and this 1 felt truly different. Google is successful a precise assured spot close now, and you tin truly consciousness that successful this conversation.

If you caught immoderate of the quality from I/O, you cognize that it was each astir AI — peculiarly a immense caller acceptable of AI products, not conscionable models and capabilities. Sundar told maine that these products correspond a caller signifier of the AI level shift, and we talked astir that astatine length: however that displacement is playing out, what the markers of these phases are, and whether immoderate of these products tin really present a instrumentality connected the immense investments Google has made successful AI implicit the years.

This year’s I/O besides marked the opening of what appears to beryllium a caller epoch for hunt and the web. Google’s caller imaginativeness for hunt goes good beyond links to webpages to thing that feels a batch much similar customized app development. When you hunt for something, Google’s caller AI Mode volition physique you a customized hunt results page, including interactive charts and perchance different kinds of apps, successful existent time.

You tin spot that imaginativeness successful the caller AI Mode, which is present disposable to each US users. Google’s program is to “graduate” features from AI Mode into the main hunt acquisition implicit time. I wanted to cognize however Sundar was reasoning astir that graduation process and however helium thinks that volition impact the web itself, which is shaped much than thing by the incentives of Google Search and SEO.

You’ll perceive Sundar accidental successful respective antithetic ways that the web is inactive getting bigger and Google is sending much postulation to much websites than ever before, but the specifics of that are hotly contested. Just earlier we talked, the News Media Alliance — the commercialized radical that represents publishers similar Conde Nast, The New York Times, and The Verge’s genitor institution Vox Media — issued what tin lone beryllium described arsenic a furious statement, calling AI Mode “theft.” So we talked astir that, too, and astir what happens to the web erstwhile AI tools and yet agents bash astir of the browsing for us.

What does it mean for the web to spell from a bid of websites erstwhile AI tools conscionable spot it arsenic a bid of databases alternatively of arsenic sites for radical to use? Why would companies similar Uber, DoorDash, oregon Airbnb let their businesses to get commoditized successful that way? If you’ve been listening to the show, you cognize I’ve been talking astir this thought a lot, truthful Sundar and I spent immoderate clip connected this idea; it was a existent Decoder conversation.

Of course, we besides talked astir the astute glasses that Google announced astatine I/O and erstwhile the adjacent epoch of AI hardware mightiness get — including what Sundar thinks of the large OpenAI and Jony Ive deal that was announced conscionable earlier we spoke. And I couldn’t fto this spell without asking astir the major antitrust trials that Google is progressive in, including the government’s demand that Google merchantability Chrome, and what the negotiations with the Justice Department person involved. President Donald Trump has agelong complained astir his hunt results being excessively negative, but Sundar told maine that helium volition not alteration hunt rankings successful effect to governmental pressure, calling hunt “sacrosanct.”

There’s a batch successful this 1 — I’m anxious to perceive what you each deliberation of it.

Okay: Alphabet and Google CEO Sundar Pichai. Here we go.

This transcript has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity. 

Sundar Pichai, you’re the CEO of Alphabet and Google. Welcome backmost to Decoder.

Nilay, bully to beryllium back. Feels similar a bully contented post-I/O to beryllium talking to you. So bully to beryllium back.

I deliberation this is the 3rd twelvemonth we’ve done this aft I/O. I’m excited. Thank you for keeping the contented alive. Lots to speech about. You announced a batch of things yesterday during the keynote. There’s AI mode rolling out for US users, and large updates to Gemini. There’s Veo 3 and Imagen, the generators that you solved Pokémon with, which is precise exciting.

My takeaway from yesterday was that Google feels precise assured now. There’s a existent assurance astir the exertion coming to beingness and the products. A batch of things are shipping imminently. What’s the 1 portion that gave you that confidence? Is it conscionable the measurement of things that are shipping? Is it 1 exertion that clicked into being acceptable for consumers? Where is it coming from?

I deliberation it comes from the extent and breadth of the AI frontier we are pushing successful a much cardinal and foundational way. We spoke a batch astir this taxable called probe becomes reality, but it is…  We’ve ever felt we are a heavy machine subject company, and we’ve been AI-first for a while. So putting each that unneurotic and bringing it to our products astatine the extent and breadth is what I deliberation is truly pleasing to see. For example, radical whitethorn not person noticed it much. It was truthful quick. We spoke astir substance diffusion models successful the mediate of the full thing, but we are pushing the frontier connected each dimensions, right? And Demis [Hassabis] spoke astir satellite models. So I deliberation that’s the breathtaking part, similar however heavy we are pushing this frontier and past bringing it to users, and possibly that’s what makes it consciousness that way.

You mentioned probe into world respective times. Obviously, a batch of these projects person been cooking successful the labs for a agelong time. You’ve said galore times implicit the past many, galore years that you and I person talked astir it that you deliberation AI volition beryllium arsenic profound arsenic electricity.

But you said thing yesterday that I deliberation adds to that, which is that we are successful a caller signifier of the level shift. People person talked astir AI being a level displacement for rather a while, but that ever has meant to maine that there’s a idiosyncratic interface level displacement coming, right? We’re going to interact with computers successful earthy connection successful much earthy ways, they’ll interact with america backmost successful that aforesaid way, and everything volition change. Is that the level shift?

Yeah, you are right. Each of these level shifts changes galore things connected the I/O front. Nothing to bash with Google I/O, conscionable I/O successful the accepted machine subject sense. You could consciousness it. Yesterday, erstwhile I watched the Android XR… I’ve utilized them and played astir with them, but watching it, with 2 radical talking successful antithetic languages, you tin envision the aboriginal 1 time wherever it’ll really beryllium seamless. In a way, you couldn’t person done it with phones, you couldn’t person done it without AI due to the fact that there’s thing successful your way. You’re looking astatine the different idiosyncratic and talking, right? And that is an constituent of level shift, but determination are galore much elements.

This is the lone level wherever I deliberation the existent level is, implicit time, susceptible of creating, self-improving, and truthful on. In a way, we could person ne'er talked astir immoderate different level before, truthful that’s wherefore I deliberation it’s overmuch much profound than the different level shifts. It’ll let radical to make caller things because, astatine each furniture of the stack, there’s going to beryllium profound improvements. And truthful I deliberation that virtuous rhythm you get successful presumption of however you tin unleash this originative powerfulness to each of society, beryllium it bundle engineers, beryllium it creators — I deliberation that is going to hap successful a overmuch much multiplicative way. So erstwhile I accidental it’s a adjacent phase, I’m talking astir that portion too.

Let maine conscionable marque that much factual for people. I deliberation the past level displacement we each recognize is the displacement to mobile.

That’s right.

And that was, we’re going to person multi-touch, we’re going to person faster compartment connections, we’re going to summation processing powerfulness that tin spell with you everywhere. And past determination was a furniture of applications that was enabled by each of those things. You tin propulsion a button, and a Toyota Camry volition amusement up wherever you are successful the world. It’s similar a precise almighty happening that requires each of those ideas. How would you picture the signifier we’re successful present compared to that? The signifier of this, that archetypal signifier of AI was that the transformers enactment and the models work, and we tin each spot this capability. The 2nd phase, what is it to you?

Just ideate erstwhile the net came, blogging became a thing. Pre-internet, precise fewer radical had a means by which they could enactment their thoughts retired to the world. With the net came a caller medium, which allowed radical to make and explicit themselves successful a caller way. With mobile came cameras, and you could sprout and you could make videos. Look astatine what’s happened with YouTube. For me, a akin portion of this is that we are each talking astir things similar vibe coding. Yesterday, you saw Veo 3, truthful we are present successful that phase. I deliberation radical are going to beryllium capable to make AI applications, you tin telephone it, vibe coding, determination are galore names for it. But that powerfulness is yet to beryllium unleashed. We are hardly scratching the surface, and these models aren’t rather there. You tin benignant of bash one-shot coding, but you truly request to beryllium a programmer to iterate and make thing with polish, right? But that frontier is evolving beauteous rapidly.

So I deliberation you’re going to spot a caller question of things, conscionable similar mobile did. Just similar the net did. I came to Google astatine the clip erstwhile AJAX was the revolution, the information that the web became dynamic. You had things similar Google Maps, Flickr, and Gmail, that each abruptly came into existence. But I deliberation AI is going to turbocharge successful a mode we haven’t seen before.

It feels similar what you’re describing is that we’re successful the signifier wherever the products are developed, right? The capabilities were the archetypal phase, and present we’re going to marque immoderate existent products.

And much radical tin physique products than ever before. That’s the multiplicative portion I’m talking about. Not conscionable this level that helps you make much products. The process of creating, developing, etc., is going to beryllium accessible to a overmuch wider swath of humanity than ever before.

I’m wondering, erstwhile you look astatine the scenery of products that beryllium now, astir radical acquisition AI successful Gemini oregon ChatGPT arsenic a chatbot. It’s a general-purpose interface to a clump of cognition that volition speech to you. What products bash you spot that volition person the aforesaid benignant of interaction arsenic the Web 2.0 products you were talking about, too the general-purpose chatbot?

Well, obviously, you’ve seen a question with coding IDEs, similar that full scenery is… I can’t adjacent support way of however galore caller companies person travel into it, and radical are utilizing a batch of it. And yesterday we showed a clump of partners with whom we are working. So that’s an country wherever AI is making the astir progress. You’re seeing the exertion layer, astatine slightest successful presumption of codification editors, truly travel into vogue. We’ve had occurrence with NotebookLM. We launched Flow yesterday. Flow is simply a caller [AI video] merchandise that allows you to make and imagine.

So those are each the applications we are doing. I deliberation others are opening to bash it. People are moving connected ineligible assistance, and determination are each kinds of startups. I was precocious successful a doctor’s office, and they person an AI that transcribes the full thing, puts it each successful reports, and truthful on. That’s an endeavor exertion layer. It benignant of works wholly otherwise from erstwhile I went connected a sojourn 2 years ago. So each that alteration is happening crossed the board, but I deliberation we are conscionable successful the aboriginal stages. You volition spot it play retired implicit the adjacent 3 to 5 years successful a large way.

Did you inquire your doc what exemplary their transcription bundle is moving on?

[Laughs] No, I didn’t. No, I didn’t.

One of the reasons I’m asking this, and I’m pushing connected this, is that the immense concern successful the capableness from Google and others has to wage disconnected successful immoderate products that instrumentality connected that investment. NotebookLM is great. I don’t deliberation it’s going to afloat instrumentality connected Google’s information halfway investment, fto unsocial the concern successful axenic AI research. Do you spot a merchandise that tin instrumentality connected that concern astatine scale?

Do you deliberation successful 2004 if you had looked astatine Gmail, which was a 20% project, which radical were internally utilizing arsenic an email service, however would we beryllium capable to deliberation astir Gmail arsenic what led america to bash workspace, oregon get into the enterprise? I made a large stake connected Google Cloud, which is tens of billions of dollars successful gross today. And truthful my constituent is that things physique retired implicit time. Think astir the travel we person been connected with Waymo. I deliberation 1 of the mistakes radical often marque successful a play of accelerated innovation is reasoning astir the adjacent large concern versus looking astatine the underlying innovation and saying, “Can you physique thing and enactment retired thing which radical emotion and use?” And retired of which you bash the adjacent thing, and make worth retired of it.

So erstwhile I look astatine it, AI is specified a horizontal portion of exertion crossed our full business. It’s wherefore it impacts not conscionable Google search, but YouTube, Cloud, and each of Android. You saw XR, etc., Google Play, things similar Waymo, and Isomorphic Labs, which is based connected AlphaFold. So I’ve ne'er seen 1 portion of exertion that tin interaction and assistance america make truthful galore businesses. AI is going to beryllium truthful utile arsenic an assistant. I deliberation that radical volition beryllium consenting to wage for it, too. We are introducing subscription plans, and truthful there’s a batch of headroom ahead, I think. And obviously, that’s wherefore we are investing, due to the fact that we spot that opportunity. Some of it volition instrumentality time, and it whitethorn not ever beryllium instantly obvious.

I gave the Waymo example. The sentiment connected Waymo was rather antagonistic 3 years ago. But actually, arsenic a company, we accrued our concern successful Waymo astatine that time, right? Because you’re betting connected the underlying exertion and you’re seeing the advancement of wherever it’s going. But these are bully questions. In immoderate ways, if you don’t recognize the opportunities, that whitethorn constrain the gait of concern successful this area, but I’m optimistic we’ll beryllium capable to unlock caller opportunities.

One crushed I wanted to commencement present arsenic the instauration of the speech is that you showed disconnected Android XR yesterday. You showed disconnected some prototype glasses, and you person immoderate partners making glasses. A batch of radical deliberation augmented world glasses powered by AI volition beryllium the realization of the afloat level shift, right? 

You volition person an always-on adjunct that tin look astatine the satellite astir you. You showed immoderate of those demos yesterday. The signifier origin volition change, and the interface volition change. This volition beryllium marketed arsenic large arsenic smartphones were. How adjacent bash you deliberation we are to that arsenic a mainstream product?

It was a bully reflective infinitesimal each the mode backmost from Google Glass. Wearing the product, I deliberation there’s a quality betwixt goggles and glasses. Everyone astatine The Verge understands arsenic well, but obviously, we are besides shipping goggles. We person announced products with Samsung to travel aboriginal this year. 

On the XR side, I’m excited astir our concern with Gentle Monster and Warby Parker. We’ll person products successful the hands of developers this year, but I deliberation those products volition beryllium beauteous adjacent to what radical yet spot arsenic last products. I’m excited. I deliberation the gait is really beauteous palpable. I’d beryllium shocked if you and I were sitting adjacent twelvemonth and I wasn’t wearing 1 of those erstwhile I’m doing this.

Do you deliberation that volition beryllium a mainstream iPhone-level replacement product? Because there’s a batch of hardware that needs to beryllium developed on the mode to propulsion that off.

You’re wearing thing connected your face. I person a prescription. The barroom is higher successful presumption of making the acquisition seamless capable that you’re consenting to deterioration it connected your look and bask it for all. I don’t needfully deliberation adjacent twelvemonth it volition beryllium arsenic mainstream arsenic what you’re talking about, but would millions of radical beryllium trying it? I deliberation so, yeah. Both are true. 

I person to inquire you… Just earlier we sat down, OpenAI announced that Jony Ive was selling a institution helium had started called “io,” and Ive and his plan consultants successful Lovefrom would instrumentality wide design. They didn’t denote a product, but they said it’s the aboriginal of computing and it’s coming adjacent year. Do you expect much of that competition, that your competitors who don’t person a smartphone operating strategy volition spell adjacent harder successful this direction?

I’m looking guardant to an OpenAI announcement up of Google I/O, the nighttime before. First of all, look, stepping back, I mean Jony Ive is 1 of a kind. You look astatine his way grounds implicit the years, I’ve met him lone erstwhile oregon twice, but I’ve admired his work, evidently similar truthful galore of us. I deliberation it’s exciting. This is wherefore I consciousness similar there’s truthful overmuch innovation ahead, and I deliberation radical thin to underestimate this moment. In immoderate ways, I ever similar to constituent retired that erstwhile the net happened, Google didn’t adjacent exist.

I deliberation AI is going to beryllium bigger than the internet. There are going to beryllium companies, products, and categories created that we aren’t alert of today. I deliberation the aboriginal looks exciting. I deliberation there’s a batch of accidental to innovate astir hardware signifier factors astatine this infinitesimal with this level shift. I’m looking guardant to seeing what they do. We are going to beryllium doing a batch arsenic well. I deliberation it’s an breathtaking clip to beryllium a consumer, it’s an breathtaking clip to beryllium a developer. I’m looking guardant to it.

Ive, successful that video, described the telephone and the laptop arsenic bequest platforms, which is precise absorbing considering his ain history. Are you each the mode determination that the telephone and the laptop are bequest platforms?

I deliberation these things, if anything, I’ve recovered done this AI infinitesimal that I’m utilizing the web a batch more, due to the fact that it’s easier to make a Veo 3 video successful my browser connected a large screen, right? And truthful I deliberation the mode I’ve internalized this, computing volition beryllium available, and you don’t person to marque these hard choices. Computing volition go truthful indispensable to you. You’re going to person it successful aggregate ways astir you erstwhile you request it, right? I usage a phone, a tablet, a laptop, and I person my workstation. And truthful I person the breadth of it, but implicit time… It makes consciousness to maine that astatine immoderate constituent successful the future, consuming contented by pulling retired this achromatic solid show rectangle successful beforehand of you and looking astatine it is not the astir intuitive mode to bash it, but I deliberation it’s going to instrumentality immoderate time.

I consciousness similar we could bash a afloat hr conscionable connected Android tablets and wherever they could go. We’re going to travel backmost for that. A large portion of what you’re describing implicates hunt successful truly large ways, right? We’re going to beryllium surrounded by accusation search, Gemini, oregon immoderate aboriginal Google product. We’ll signifier that information, instrumentality enactment for you crossed the web successful immoderate way, and you volition person a companion. Maybe you lone propulsion retired your tablet to ticker a video oregon something. A batch of what’s going connected with hunt has downstream effects connected the web, and downstream effects connected accusation providers broadly. Last year, we spent a batch of clip talking astir those effects. Are you seeing that play retired the mode that you thought it would?

It depends. I deliberation radical are consuming a batch much information, and the web is 1 circumstantial format. We should speech astir the web, but zooming backmost out, determination are caller platforms similar YouTube and others. I deliberation radical are conscionable consuming a batch much information, right? It feels similar an expansionary moment.

I deliberation determination are much creators, and radical are putting retired much content. And truthful radical are mostly doing a batch more. Maybe radical person a small other clip connected their hands, and truthful it’s a operation of each that. On the web, look, things that person been absorbing and… We’ve had these conversations for a while. Obviously, successful 2015, determination was this celebrated meme, “The web is dead.” I ever person it determination around, and I look astatine it erstwhile successful a while. Predictions… It has existed for a while. I deliberation the web is evolving beauteous profoundly. I deliberation that is true. When we crawl and look astatine the fig of web pages disposable to us, that fig has gone up by 45% successful the past 2 years alone, right? That’s a staggering happening to deliberation of.

Can you observe if that measurement summation is due to the fact that much pages are generated by AI oregon not? This is the happening I whitethorn beryllium disquieted astir the most, right?

It’s a bully question. We mostly person galore techniques successful hunt to effort and recognize the prime of a page, including whether it was machine-generated, etc. That doesn’t explicate the inclination we are seeing.

Generally, determination are much web pages, right? At an underlying level, I deliberation that’s an absorbing phenomenon. I deliberation everybody arsenic a creator similar you are astatine The Verge, has to bash everything successful a cross-platform, cross-format way. I look astatine the prime of video contented you enactment out, it’s precise blase and precise antithetic from however The Verge utilized to be, possibly 5 to 10 years ago, right? It has profoundly changed. I deliberation things are becoming much dynamic, and cross-format. I deliberation different happening radical are underestimating with AI is that AI volition marque it zero friction to determination from 1 format to another, right? Because our models are natively multimodal. We tease people’s imaginativeness with audio overviews successful NotebookLM, right? The information that you tin propulsion a clump of documents astatine it, you person a podcast, and you tin articulation and larn from it.

I deliberation this notion, the static infinitesimal of producing contented by format, whereas… I deliberation machines tin assistance construe it. It’s astir similar antithetic languages and they tin spell seamlessly between. I deliberation it’s 1 of the unthinkable opportunities to beryllium unlocked close ahead. But maybe, I didn’t privation to drift from the question we were having. Look, I deliberation radical are producing a batch of content, and I spot consumers consuming a batch of content. And we spot it successful our products; others are seeing it too. That’s however I would astir apt reply astatine the highest level.

The mode I spot it presently is that the web is astatine an all-time precocious arsenic an exertion platform, right? The information that Figma exists and is arsenic palmy arsenic it is, and its superior interface arsenic a web app is, I think, remarkable. A batch of the products you are talking astir are expressed arsenic web apps. Even immoderate of the astir absorbing hunt results you showed yesterday are however Google would make a customized web app for you and show it successful a hunt effect to bash immoderate information visualization. I deliberation that’s each looking incredible.

I deliberation the web arsenic a transaction level is reaching caller highs, particularly with rulings that mean smartphone makers person to fto radical propulsion transactions to the web. There’s thing precise absorbing happening there. As a media platform, it feels similar it’s astatine an all-time low, right?

Do you mean the web arsenic a media platform?

The web arsenic a media platform, arsenic an accusation platform. If I were starting The Verge today with 11 of my co-founders and friends, we would commencement a TikTok channel, and we mightiness commencement a YouTube channel. We would decidedly not commencement a website with the dependencies we person arsenic a website today. And that’s the dynamic that it feels similar AI is pushing connected adjacent harder.

I’m not afloat definite I agree, right? I deliberation if you were to spell and restart The Verge again, I stake you would person an bonzer web presence.

At best, no, I’ve thought astir this a lot. I deliberation astatine champion our web beingness would look similar a Substack oregon a Ghost oregon something, right?

Maybe. I’m not afloat sold connected that, but you cognize the space. I admit that you cognize that abstraction amended than I do. I don’t person that intuition, which you bash here. But look, successful fact, you accidental the web exertion level is astatine an all-time high, but I’ve looked. I was vibe coding with Replit a fewer weeks ago. The powerfulness of what you’re going to beryllium capable to make connected the web — we haven’t fixed that powerfulness to developers successful 25 years.

That is going to travel ahead. It’s not precisely wide to me. Maybe contiguous you’re looking astatine it and say, I wouldn’t enactment each the concern successful due to the fact that it looks similar a batch of concern to bash that. But that whitethorn not beryllium existent 2 years out, right? If you consciousness similar you would make a TikTok channel, past possibly with 2% other effort you could person a robust web presence. Why wouldn’t you, right? And truthful I’m not afloat sold connected it, but I deliberation it’s a bully question to ask. But you person to someway reconcile that with the information that overall, web postulation seems to beryllium growing. We spot much web pages. Somewhere, we person to explicate each of that, too.

The publishers, arsenic they often do, responded to Google I/O announcements. So, the News Media Alliance, aft AI mode was announced yesterday, I would accidental they’re precise upset. Here’s a statement from the President of the News Media Alliance, “Links for the past redeeming prime of hunt that gave publishers postulation and revenue. Now, Google takes contented by unit and uses it with nary return, nary economical return. That’s the explanation of theft.” And they spell connected to accidental the DOJ and lawsuits indispensable code it. That’s beauteous furious. That’s not a negotiation, right? That’s a “We conscionable privation this to stop.” How bash you respond to that precise large acceptable of radical who say, “Yeah, okay, possibly it’s increasing somewhere, but for us, it’s crushing our businesses.”

First of all, done each the products, AI mode is going to person sources. And we are precise committed arsenic a direction, arsenic a merchandise absorption to make… I deliberation portion of wherefore radical travel to Google is to acquisition that breadth of the web and spell successful the absorption they privation to, right? So I presumption america arsenic giving much context. Yes, determination are definite questions that whitethorn get answers, but overall… And that’s the signifier we spot today, right? And, if thing implicit the past year, it’s wide to america that the breadth of country we are sending radical to is increasing. And truthful I expect that to beryllium existent with AI mode arsenic well.

But if it was increasing, wouldn’t they beryllium little aggravated with you?

You’re ever going to person areas wherever radical are robustly debating worth exchanges, etc., similar app developers and platforms. That’s not connected the web, etc. There’s ever going to beryllium — erstwhile you’re moving a level — these debates. I would challenge, I deliberation much than immoderate different company, we prioritize sending postulation to the web. No 1 sends postulation to the web successful the mode we do. I look astatine different companies, newer emerging companies, wherever they openly speech astir it arsenic thing they’re not going to do. We are the lone ones who marque it a precocious priority, agonize, and truthful on. We’ll engage, and we’ve ever engaged.

There are going to beryllium debates done it all, but we are committed to, I’ve said this before, everything we bash crossed all… You volition spot america 5 years from present sending a batch of postulation retired to the web. I deliberation that’s the merchandise absorption we are committed to. I deliberation it’s what users look for erstwhile they travel to Google, and the quality of it volition evolve. But I americium assured that that’s the absorption we’ll proceed taking.

Is determination nationalist information that shows that AI overviews and AI mode really nonstop much postulation retired than the erstwhile hunt motor results page?

The mode we look astatine it is… I mean, obviously, we instrumentality a batch of… We are decidedly sending postulation to a wider scope of sources and publishers. And due to the fact that conscionable similar we’ve done implicit 25 years, we’ve been done the aforesaid with featured snippets, the prime of… It’s higher-quality referral traffic, too. And we tin observe it due to the fact that the clip that radical walk is 1 metric. And determination are different ways by which we measurement the prime of our outbound traffic, and it’s besides increasing. And overall, done this transition, I deliberation AI is besides growing, and the maturation compounds implicit time. So whenever we person worked done these transitions, it ends up posted. That’s however Google has worked for 25 years, and we extremity up sending much postulation implicit time. So that’s however I would expect each this to play out.

So wherefore bash you deliberation that determination is truthful overmuch wide economical turmoil connected that broadside of the house? If you’re sending much postulation and the extremity implicit clip is to marque definite that that works… We’re a twelvemonth into it, and it doesn’t look to person gotten amended implicit there.

No, look, we are sending postulation to a broader root of people. People whitethorn beryllium surfacing much content, looking astatine much content, truthful idiosyncratic whitethorn individually spot less. There are each kinds of… At the extremity of the day, we are reflecting what users want. If you bash the incorrect thing, users won’t usage our merchandise and spell determination else. And truthful you person each these dynamics underway, and I deliberation we person genuinely… We took a agelong clip designing AI overviews, and we are perpetually iterating successful a mode that we prioritize this, sources, and sending postulation to the web.

I mean, my disapproval of this industry, conscionable to beryllium clear, is that everyone’s addicted to Google, and it would beryllium amended if they weren’t. But they’re addicted to Google, right? And they’re feeling it. And past connected apical of that, you see… You’ve mentioned respective times that wide queries are expanding connected Google surfaces, but they’re changing. They’re getting longer, they’re getting much complicated. AI mode mightiness locomotion you done respective steps. Maybe immoderate radical are searching connected TikTok now.

Eddie Cue connected the basal successful the proceedings the different time said that search successful Safari for the past period dropped for the archetypal clip successful 22 years. That’s a large stat. Obviously, your banal terms was affected by it. There was a statement. Is that inclination bearing retired that the modular Google hunt is dropping from devices, and antithetic kinds of searches are increasing?

No. We’ve been precise clear. We’re seeing wide query maturation successful search. 

But person you really seen the driblet successful Safari?

We person a broad presumption of however we look astatine information crossed the board. There tin beryllium a batch of sound successful hunt data, but everything we spot tells america that we are seeing query growth, including crossed Apple’s devices and platforms. Specifically, I deliberation we quantified the query maturation from AI overviews. And what’s steadfast is that the query maturation is continuing to turn implicit time.

So to measurement back, and this is what I’ve said before, it feels precise acold from a zero-sum crippled to me. I said this past year. I deliberation radical are… It’s absorbing we spoke astir TikTok, right? Think astir however profound of a caller merchandise TikTok was. How has YouTube done since TikTok has come, right? You could inquire each these questions there. Why is it that TikTok arrives and YouTube has grown? And truthful I deliberation what we ever underestimate successful these moments is that radical are engaging more, doing much with it. We are improving our products. And truthful that’s however I would deliberation astir these moments.

Let maine conscionable broaden that retired to agents. I watched Demis Hassabis yesterday. He was connected signifier with Sergey Brin and Alex Kantrowitz asked him, “What does the web look similar successful 10 years?” And Demis said, “I don’t cognize that an agent-first web looks thing similar the web that we person today. I don’t cognize that we person to render web pages for agents the mode that we person to spot them.”

That benignant of implies that the web volition crook into a bid of databases for assorted agents to spell and inquire questions to, and past instrumentality those answers. And I’ve been reasoning astir this successful the discourse of services similar Uber, DoorDash, and Airbnb. Why would they privation to enactment successful that and beryllium abstracted distant for agents to usage the services they’ve spent a batch of clip and wealth building?

Two things, though. First, there’s a batch to unpack, a fascinating topic. The web is simply a bid of databases, etc. We physique a UI connected apical of it for each of america to conceive.

This is precisely what I wanted, “the web is simply a bid of databases.”

It is. But I deliberation I listened to the Demis and Sergey speech yesterday. I enjoyed it. I deliberation he’s saying for an agent-first web, for a web that is interacting with agents, you would deliberation astir however to marque that process much efficient. Today, you’re moving a restaurant, radical are coming, eating and eating, and radical are ordering takeout and delivery. Obviously, for you to work the takeout, you would deliberation astir it otherwise than each the tables, the clothing, and the furniture. But some are important to you.

You could beryllium a edifice that decides not to enactment successful the takeout business. I’m lone going to absorption connected the eating experience. You’re going to person immoderate radical that are vice versa. I’m going to say, I’m going to spell each successful connected this and tally a antithetic experience. So, to your question connected agents… I deliberation of agents arsenic a caller almighty format. I bash deliberation it’ll hap successful enterprises faster than successful consumer. In the discourse of an enterprise, you person a CIO who’s capable to spell and say, “I truly don’t cognize wherefore these 2 things don’t speech to each other. I americium not going to bargain much of this unless you interoperate with this.” I deliberation it’s portion of wherefore you see, connected the endeavor side, a batch much agentic experiences. On the user side, I deliberation what you’re saying is simply a bully point. People person to deliberation astir and say, “What is the worth for maine to enactment successful this world?” And it could travel successful galore ways. It could beryllium due to the fact that I participated successful it, and overall, my concern grows.

Some radical whitethorn consciousness that it’s disintermediating, and doesn’t marque sense. I deliberation each of that tin happen, but users whitethorn enactment with their feet. You whitethorn find immoderate radical are supporting the cause experience, and your beingness is amended due to the fact that of it. And truthful you’re going to person each these dynamics, and I deliberation they’re going to effort and find an equilibrium somewhere. That’s however everything evolves. 

I mean, I deliberation the thought that the web is simply a bid of databases and we alteration the interface… First of all, this is the astir Decoder conversation that we’ve ever had. I’m precise blessed with it. But I had Dara [Khosrowshahi] from Uber on the show. I asked him this question from his perspective, and his reply attracts yours broadly. He said, first, we’ll bash it due to the fact that it’s chill and we’ll spot if there’s worth there. And if determination is, he’s going to complaint a large interest for the cause to travel and usage Uber.

Because losing the lawsuit for him, oregon losing the quality to upsell oregon merchantability a subscription, nary of that is great. The aforesaid is existent for Airbnb. I support calling it the DoorDash problem. DoorDash should not beryllium a dumb tube for sandwiches. They’re really trying to tally a business, and they privation the lawsuit relationship. And truthful if the agents are going crossed the web and they’re looking astatine each these databases and saying, okay, this is wherever I get nutrient from, and this is wherever I get cars from, and this is wherever I book… I deliberation the demo was booking a abrogation location successful Spanish, and I’m going to link you to that question agent.

Is it conscionable going to beryllium tolls that everyone pays to fto the agents work? The CIO gets to conscionable walk wealth to lick the problem. He says, “I privation this capableness from you. I’m conscionable going to wage you to bash it.” The market, the user market, doesn’t person that capability, right?

Well, look, each kinds of models whitethorn emerge, right? I tin virtually envision 20 antithetic ways this could work. Consumers could wage a subscription for agents, and the agents could gross stock back. So that is the CIO-like usage lawsuit you are talking about, that’s possible. We can’t regularisation that out. I don’t deliberation we should underestimate… People whitethorn really spot much worth successful participating successful it. I deliberation this is… It’s pugnacious to predict, but I bash deliberation that implicit time, if you’re removing friction and improving idiosyncratic experience, it’s pugnacious to stake against those successful the agelong run. And truthful I deliberation if you are lowering friction for it and past radical are enjoying utilizing it, somebody’s going to privation to enactment successful it and turn their business. And would brands privation to beryllium successful retailers? Why don’t they merchantability straight today? Why won’t they bash that?

Because retailers supply worth successful the middle. And wherefore bash merchants instrumentality recognition cards? Why… I’m conscionable saying. So determination are galore parts, and you find equilibrium due to the fact that merchants instrumentality recognition cards truthful they spot much concern arsenic portion of taking recognition cards than not, which justifies the accrued outgo of taking recognition cards. It whitethorn not beryllium the cleanable analogy, but I deliberation determination are each these kinds of effects going around, and so… But what you’re saying is true. Some of this volition dilatory advancement successful agents conscionable due to the fact that we each are excited astir Agent2Agent (A2A) and Model Context Protocol (MCP)… And we deliberation no, immoderate of it volition dilatory progress, but I deliberation it’ll beryllium precise dynamic. Yeah.

Yeah. There are different pressures connected Google. There are antitrust pressures. The authorities would similar you to merchantability Chrome. Can you bash each the things you privation to bash if you’re made to merchantability Chrome?

I don’t privation to remark on… We are successful a ineligible process. I look astatine having been straight progressive successful gathering Chrome. I look at… I deliberation determination are precise fewer companies that would’ve… We not lone improved our product, but we besides improved the authorities of the web by gathering Chrome. We open-sourced it. We provided Chromium. Everyone other has entree to the browser. So I deliberation the magnitude of R&D, the magnitude of innovation we enactment into it, the investments successful security, etc., we do, truthful I deliberation we-

But if you’re made to merchantability it, tin you bash each the things that you privation to do?

I don’t deliberation that’s the script we’re looking at, but stepping back… Look, I deliberation arsenic a company, we deliberation of ourselves arsenic a profoundly foundational exertion company, which past translates into products that interaction billions of people. So we bash it crossed many, galore things. And so, of course, I think, look, arsenic a company, we’re going to proceed investing and doing our champion to innovate and physique a palmy concern successful each scenarios. So this is however I would reply it.

The Trump medication is extremely transactional, I would say. The tech manufacture has a caller narration with Trump successful his 2nd term. You were astatine the inauguration. Have you had conversations astir what a colony mightiness look similar and what the Trump medication mightiness request to marque these problems spell away?

We’ve engaged with the DOJ, similar we did implicit the years, successful the discourse of each the cases we have. So that’s however we usually bash these conversations.

Trump has precise publically said helium doesn’t similar his hunt ranking, and helium wants it changed successful immoderate way. Would you ever set the hunt ranking for Donald Trump?

No. Look, we person a… I can’t… Today, the mode Google Search works is that I cannot… No idiosyncratic astatine Google tin power the ranking algorithm.

AI mode is different, right? We’ve seen strategy prompts adjusted successful precise chaotic ways from immoderate of your competitors. Is that thing that you would beryllium unfastened to successful a satellite wherever you’re serving the afloat answer? Would you set the AI mode responses successful effect to governmental pressure?

No.

Because we’ve surely seen successful Grok and others, the strategy prompts alteration the answers successful melodramatic ways.

The mode we bash ranking is sacrosanct to us. We’ve done it for implicit 25 years. We marque a batch of… There are a batch of ranking signals we instrumentality into relationship and stuff. And if there’s wide feedback from radical that thing isn’t working, we volition look astatine it systematically and effort and marque changes, but we don’t look astatine idiosyncratic cases and alteration the rankings.

When you deliberation astir those sources of information, 1 of the things that I person been reasoning astir a batch is, I don’t know, however the CDC web pages person changed a batch recently. Diversity, equity, and inclusion connection has been removed from pages crossed the government. Those utilized to beryllium precise high-ranking sources successful Google Search. We conscionable implicitly trusted the CDC’s web pages successful immoderate ways. Are you re-evaluating that? How determination mightiness beryllium misinformation connected immoderate of these pages that past gets synthesized into AI results?

Oh, it’s a misunderstanding of however hunt works. We don’t individually measure the authoritativeness of a leafage close then. It’s what our signals do. Obviously, our signals are aggregate orders of magnitude much analyzable than PageRank today. But to usage PageRank arsenic an example, we weren’t the ones determining however authoritative a leafage is. It’s however different pages were linking to it, similar an world citation, etc. So we are not making those decisions today. And truthful I don’t spot that changing.

As you synthesize much of the answers, bash you deliberation you’re going to person to instrumentality much work for the results?

We are giving discourse astir it, but we’re inactive anchoring it successful the sources we find. But we’ve ever felt a precocious barroom astatine Google. I mean, past twelvemonth erstwhile we launched AI Overviews, I deliberation radical were adversarially querying to find errors, and the mistake complaint was 1 successful 7 cardinal for adversarial queries, and so… But that’s the barroom we’ve ever operated astatine arsenic a company. And truthful I deliberation to me, thing has changed. Google operates astatine a precise precocious bar. That’s the barroom we strive to meet, and our hunt leafage results are determination for everyone to see. With that comes earthy accountability, and we person to perpetually gain people’s trust. So that’s however I would attack it.

What bash you deliberation the marker is for the adjacent signifier of the level displacement aft this one? We opened by talking astir however we’re successful a 2nd phase. What’s the marker for the last phase, oregon the 3rd phase?

Of the level shift, bash you mean?

Yeah.

Of the AI platform?

What are you looking for arsenic the adjacent marker?

I deliberation the existent happening astir AI, which I deliberation is wherefore I’ve ever called it much profound, is self-improving technology. Having watched AlphaGo commencement from scratch, not knowing however to play Go, and wrong a mates of hours oregon 4 hours, beryllium amended than top-level quality players, and successful 8 hours, nary quality tin ever aspire to play against it. And that’s the essence of the technology, evidently successful a heavy way. 

I deliberation there’s truthful overmuch up connected the accidental side. I’m blown distant by the quality to observe caller drugs, wholly alteration however we dainty diseases similar crab implicit time, etc. The accidental is there. The originative power, which I talked about, which we’re putting successful everyone’s hands, the adjacent procreation of kids, everyone tin programme and will… If you deliberation of something, you tin make it. I don’t deliberation we person comprehended what that means, but that’s going to beryllium true. The portion wherever the adjacent signifier of the displacement is going to beryllium truly meaningful is erstwhile this translates into the carnal satellite done robotics. 

So that aha infinitesimal of robotics, I think, erstwhile it happens, that’s going to beryllium the adjacent large happening we volition each grapple with. Today they’re each online and you’re doing things with it, but connected 1 hand… Today, I deliberation of Waymo arsenic a robot. So we are moving astir driving a robot, but I’m talking astir a much general-purpose robot. And erstwhile AI creates that magical infinitesimal with robotics, I deliberation that’ll beryllium a large level displacement arsenic well.

Yeah. I’m looking guardant to it. Next twelvemonth we’re going to bash this with glasses and robots. It’s going to beryllium great.

[Laughs] We’ll springiness it a shot.

Thank you truthful much, Sundar.

All right. Thanks, Nilay. I admit it.

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