Can John Ternus find Apple’s next big thing?

Today, I’m talking with Mark Gurman, who is the world’s best-sourced Apple newsman — some arsenic Bloomberg’s main Apple analogous and the big of the upcoming podcast Power On. 

Earlier this month, Apple hosted its yearly iPhone hardware event, virtually each item of which was reported up of clip by Mark. But this lawsuit was special, for a fig of reasons. 

It was caller Apple CEO John Ternus’ archetypal large merchandise motorboat since helium took implicit for erstwhile CEO Tim Cook little than 2 weeks prior. It was besides the debut of the iPhone Duo, Apple’s archetypal foldable smartphone. The timing of those 2 things was not astatine each coincidental, arsenic you’ll perceive Mark explain. Apple takes these hardware events — and the stories they archer — highly seriously. 

This year’s communicative really says a large woody astir what’s happening astatine Apple, however Cook managed successful wholesale enactment ranks implicit the past year, and however each of that mightiness alteration Apple’s culture. Furthermore, what each that tells astir Ternus’ program to navigate Apple from what you mightiness telephone the iPhone epoch into the AI era.

Okay: Bloomberg’s Mark Gurman connected the aboriginal of Apple. Here we go.

This interrogation has been lightly edited for magnitude and clarity. 

Mark Gurman, you’re the main Apple analogous and the managing exertion of user exertion astatine Bloomberg. Welcome to Decoder.

Good to beryllium present finally. Thanks for having me. And it’s been a while, truthful it’s bully to drawback up connected each things Apple.

Yeah, I’m truly excited to speech to you. Obviously, Apple conscionable had its large event. They announced the iPhone Duo. It was John Ternus’s archetypal lawsuit arsenic CEO. This is simply a Decoder episode, truthful we’ve got a caller CEO, and we’ve got a caller org illustration wrong of Apple.

There’s been a batch of shuffling. You’ve been chronicling them very, precise profoundly implicit the past fewer years. Let’s conscionable commencement with the event. I person a precise basal question for you.

Sure.

Do you ever get nostalgic for a clip erstwhile you didn’t cognize what was going to hap astatine the iPhone event?

Do I ever get nostalgic? 

Do you ever privation that you, Mark Gurman, were astir to beryllium surprised?

Honestly, I ne'er deliberation astir it that way. I’m conscionable fixated connected delivering the goods and delivering the news. And radical emotion their Apple. People privation to cognize everything that’s coming down to the past minute, truthful I’m present to supply it for them. 

The happening with me, and I don’t cognize if astir radical cognize this astir me, but I anticipation radical cognize this astir me, is that I’m a immense Apple instrumentality done and through, and I’ve ever been. And I’m truthful fortunate to beryllium capable to screen a institution that I love, a institution that I americium obsessed with, and a institution whose products I use. There are truthful galore radical who screen companies that they couldn’t attraction little about. That’s not me. 

So I bash what I bash due to the fact that I emotion Apple and I emotion covering Apple. I emotion the assemblage astir it, and I emotion talking astir it. And it’s ever amusive to get a peek astatine the aboriginal and assistance support not lone myself informed, but radical informed astir me.

That really leads maine to a batch of things due to the fact that I’ve known you forever. We’ve been moving successful and astir the aforesaid spaces forever. You got your commencement arsenic an Apple blogger astatine the Apple rumor sites. 

There’s a full civilization astir Apple that has grown up and changed implicit the years, and you tin hint it to antithetic eras of hardware, to antithetic CEOs, to antithetic sizes of the company. This was the archetypal lawsuit with John Ternus arsenic CEO. Apple announced a large caller merchandise successful the iPhone Duo.

Do you consciousness that the assemblage is changing? How bash you deliberation that assemblage has changed implicit the years? And bash you deliberation Ternus is going to pb to a quality successful what that assemblage feels like?

I person to say, this lawsuit truly didn’t consciousness overmuch antithetic than a Tim Cook event. They felt beauteous interchangeable. It could person been Tim up determination introducing it. It could person been Ternus up determination introducing it.

The 1 happening I volition accidental that did consciousness somewhat antithetic is that Ternus came retired swinging with a constituent of presumption connected AI. The archetypal happening helium came retired with was astir the intelligent idiosyncratic hub. Now, here’s the large quality betwixt Tim Cook and John Ternus successful presumption of their absorption style. You’re wrong Apple, you’re an executive, you’ll travel to him with an idea, you’ll travel to him with a viewpoint, a decision, an opinion, and he’ll conscionable capsicum you with much questions. He won’t marque a singular determination successful galore cases. It’s precise overmuch communal decision-making, collaborative decision-making. 

John Ternus, if you travel to him and you privation him to marque a decision, he’ll marque a decision. He’ll person an opinion. Now, you whitethorn hatred his opinion; you whitethorn wholly disagree with him, but helium has a viewpoint. But that’s the large quality betwixt talking to radical astir Ternus and Tim.

Ternus comes retired talking astir his presumption connected AI. I whitethorn disagree with it. A batch of radical whitethorn disagree with it. They whitethorn deliberation the OpenAI oregon Anthropic attack is superior, but astatine slightest helium came retired and had a viewpoint. 

Apple’s been astatine this AI crippled present for 2 years since they launched Apple Intelligence astatine WWDC successful 2024, and it’s been a mishmash of things. They haven’t truly travel retired with a precise beardown communicative and viewpoint, and they yet did. So, arsenic I said, whether you hold with it oregon not, they did bash that. And I thought that was a truly absorbing mode to footwear disconnected the keynote.

All right, we’re conscionable going to get into the weeds of Apple nerds disagreeing astir things. 

Okay, let’s bash it.

I sat done that event, and I appreciated the aforesaid happening that you saw, which is, “Oh, we’re telling a story.” John Ternus is connected the stage, and the archetypal happening he’s doing is telling a communicative astir this merchandise and however it fits into the beingness of technology. And past I took a beat, and I was like, oh, but they’re besides conscionable making definite that he’s palmy astatine his archetypal lawsuit by playing Apple’s top hits. 

Because an “intelligent idiosyncratic hub” is conscionable a replay of Steve Jobs saying the iMac was the integer hub. At the precise extremity of the event, Ternus said, “There’s 1 much thing, and it’s the iPhone Duo.” 

There was conscionable a portion of each of that that, to me, felt similar Apple saying, “Look, our caller CEO tin enactment connected the apparel of the aged CEO. He tin bash this aforesaid creation that you’re expecting.” Underneath it, what I felt was, to your point, that I don’t bargain the communicative astir the intelligent hub. 

No, I don’t bargain it either.

Because immoderate of the things we’re seeing AI bash are happening successful unreality services. It’s the aforesaid week that Meta launched Muse, right?

Right.

You tin consciousness what you privation astir Meta launching Muse, but Mark Zuckerberg is giving everybody 8GB of retention and 8GB of RAM successful the cloud, and Muse tin spell bash a batch of things that AI connected the iPhone perfectly cannot bash astatine this constituent successful time. 

I conscionable felt similar determination was a portion wherever they were playing it truly harmless with John by having him fundamentally amusement up and beryllium the caller pb vocalist of Journey. You can’t get it incorrect if you’re going to bash “Lights.” If you’re going to amusement up connected signifier and bash “Don’t Stop Believin’,” you’re going to beryllium good for a minute. And it’s each the worldly that comes aft that’s going to truly amusement his existent personality. But it sounds similar you thought that that’s his constituent of view.

Well, it’s a mates of things. At a precise precocious level, Apple’s going to archer a communicative astir what they have. If Apple invented ChatGPT, they would’ve invented ChatGPT, and they would’ve told a bully communicative astir that. Apple has gone arsenic acold arsenic it’s capable to, astatine slightest for now, connected AI. So it’s telling the story, the champion mentation of that communicative that they tin with what they person to enactment with, with the vertebrate they person successful hand. So that’s the 1 thing.

I hold with you connected the intelligent idiosyncratic hub, and however that compares to the iMac backmost successful ’98. And it feels similar they’re trying to merchantability this pivot from the Mac arsenic the halfway of everything with the peripherals astir it; past you got to iCloud successful 2011, the halfway of everything with the peripherals astir it. Now, it’s this Intelligence close astatine the halfway with everything astir it.

But what’s truthful fascinating is that Apple held a large merchandise motorboat lawsuit successful September of the twelvemonth 2026 and did not present a azygous notable caller AI feature. The archetypal 15 minutes oregon truthful of the keynote was simply a replay, a re-narrativization of what they introduced implicit the past 2 years with Apple Intelligence. And truthful they tried to conscionable archer that communicative successful a much factual way.

The different happening is they don’t person immoderate AI devices astatine the precise core, and truthful they request to prop up the iPhone arsenic their AI instrumentality due to the fact that they don’t person an alternative. But of people they’re lone going to bash that until they person that slayer device, and past they’re going to alteration that full narrative. 

So it’s a precise communicative PR and marketing-driven company. And I’m not saying that to beryllium critical. I mean, if I ran the company, evidently I’m going to tout what I have. I’m not going to veer from that. But it is absorbing however they’re playing this. And I agree, they did play it precise safe. There’s thing safer than John Ternus introducing a caller iPhone. It’s similar the safest happening you tin do. No large caller AI product, nary astute location hub, thing successful the spatial space, conscionable consecutive down the middle.

Yeah, it seems similar that adjacent question of astute location products, which we’re expecting aboriginal this year… I say, “We’re expecting.” I’m expecting it due to the fact that that is thing you person reported.

[Laughs] I americium expecting it, yes.

Mark Gurman is expecting caller products from Apple. That is the archetypal chopped astatine immoderate genuinely AI-native devices. Because you person Siri AI and it is functional present successful a mode that it antecedently was not functional, you tin effort immoderate caller classes of devices.

There are astir a fractional twelve AI-native devices coming successful the adjacent twelvemonth and a fractional oregon so. The archetypal volition beryllium the astute location hub, which is fundamentally an Amazon Echo Show but Apple-style. It volition person a quadrate surface and an wholly caller operating system. The thought is: what would a Siri AI operating strategy look like? This is that: intercom, video conferencing, proactive intelligence. 

So you locomotion up to it, it recognizes who you are, and it volition amusement contented idiosyncratic to you. It volition cognize who is speaking. Obviously, the Amazon Echo tin bash that, but Apple’s doing it successful its ain Apple-y mode with AI-based Face ID.

They’re moving connected a location information system. They’re moving connected different mentation of the astute location hub that I conscionable talked astir that is attached to a robotic arm. So you enactment it connected your desk, and it tin determination around. It’s really a class that’s beauteous popping successful Asia and successful China close now. 

Then you’ve got the wearables, the astute glasses. I inactive judge those are going to beryllium introduced and shipped successful 2027, truthful not excessively acold from now. Trust me, you’ll beryllium wearing them. Within 365 days, you volition beryllium wearing them and person video footage of you wearing them astatine the Steve Jobs Theater. And if that is not the case, either thing went horribly incorrect for you oregon thing went horribly incorrect for Apple.

You’ll besides person the AirPods with cameras. That’s an absorbing happening that we should speech about, but they’ll person the AirPods with cameras and past a fewer different wearables that I won’t get into.

So this is what I was talking astir erstwhile I said determination were eras astatine Apple and people’s narration with the institution truly changed. The Steve Jobs epoch was defined by devices, and successful particular, Steve Jobs himself getting up and doing a keynote and famously putting up pictures of each the existing smartphones and saying, “Well, these each suck. And here’s the crushed they each suck, and here’s the iPhone and here’s wherefore it’s better.” 

That created 1 benignant of narration betwixt Apple’s tremendous assemblage of fans, its leader, and the products. I deliberation that was precise successful. I deliberation the Tim Cook epoch has been meaningfully different. I deliberation it’s mostly a communicative astir scale. To immoderate extent, it’s a communicative astir values. To a immense extent, it’s a communicative astir privacy. 

Apple has marketed itself arsenic the privateness company. It fought the FBI to support the iPhone encrypted. There’s a batch determination with Tim Cook’s mentation of the company, but it’s much corporate. Certainly, it’s conscionable a vaster company. It’s safer. It’s not arsenic unsmooth astir the edges arsenic Jobs’ Apple, but it wasn’t arsenic device-based. 

I don’t deliberation the Vision Pro has the aforesaid benignant of mainstream taste interaction arsenic adjacent the hockey puck rodent that Jobs enactment out. There was a happening that helium could bash with products that Tim Cook Apple could not rather bash with products. And that conscionable feels truly antithetic to me.

I’m going to close you connected that due to the fact that each clip I enactment an nonfiction oregon a station retired astir the Vision Pro being connected beingness support, I get what amounts to fundamentally a notch oregon 2 beneath a decease menace from dozens of people. So radical are passionate astir it. 

Dozens? Dozens?

Well, honestly, I deliberation what it is is that radical person created businesses astir spatial computing and apps, and they’re conscionable pissed disconnected that they’ve invested each this clip and wealth successful a class that’s astir apt going to dice out.

And past you person consumers who spent 4 expansive connected this product, and they’re like, “I saved up for this thing, I’m surviving with this thing, and I’m pissed disconnected to perceive the realities.” But if you person different hour, we tin speech astir the Vision Pro. 

No, the examination determination is good. People person invested successful it. They attraction profoundly astir it. The examination I’m making is that the narration radical person to Apple successful the Cook epoch is arsenic an institution. It’s conscionable similar this large happening that spans the globe connected a monolithic scale. 

It’s IBM.

Yeah, and successful the Jobs era, it was each astir really, truly innovative caller products that redefined categories implicit and implicit again. You’re describing a full clump of caller products that came up successful the Cook epoch that John Ternus is going to launch. How bash you expect the civilization of Apple to alteration astir its products oregon its narration to the civilization to alteration arsenic we spell from 1 CEO to another?

But deliberation astir what they did. You’ve got the coolest caller iPhone and Apple merchandise successful possibly 10, 20 years introduced 1 week aft Tim Cook steps down. And past for the adjacent 12 to 18 months, you’ve got, I don’t know, six oregon 7 caller merchandise categories. Maybe you person 25 beauteous breakthrough things. 

So Tim Cook made a determination that, adjacent though his tenure astatine a merchandise institution was beauteous constricted successful large caller things, the Apple Watch turned retired to beryllium a success, adjacent though it started arsenic a implicit dud, arsenic you remember. The AirPods are a unsocial beast successful that they’re an accessory, but it’s not a level connected its ain yet. It’s going to get there. And the Vision Pro is simply a failure. 

Tim Cook could person ended his tenure arsenic CEO with the iPhone Duo. He could person conscionable waited. Typical transitions astatine Apple hap mid-October oregon mid-April; they hap connected January 1st. It was a circumstantial determination that was made for John Ternus to beryllium the 1 to present the iPhone Duo. It was a circumstantial determination made for John Ternus to beryllium the 1 to present this full caller merchandise roadmap. Even though, arsenic you know, due to the fact that of the magnitude of hardware improvement cycles and R&D, these things were successful the oven for 5 to 10 years.

So it’s truly absorbing that this determination was made to fto Ternus beryllium the look of this full caller epoch of products alternatively than let Tim Cook to instrumentality the recognition for it. And I deliberation that’s to your constituent wherever they’re trying to gully the enactment successful the soil of this caller era. If Cook is already going to measurement down successful the adjacent 3 years, let’s conscionable bash it present and fto Ternus instrumentality the recognition for everything.

Take maine wrong that. You’ve evidently done a batch of reporting. I deliberation you were the archetypal to interruption the quality that Cook would beryllium searching for a successor. You were, I think, among the precise archetypal to interruption that it would beryllium Ternus. Tell maine astir that process. 

This is simply a large decision; Cook is going to play a immense relation astatine the company. He has a monolithic compensation programme tied beauteous overmuch to having to speech to Xi Jinping and Donald Trump. It seems similar that’s his job: to conscionable negociate that relationship. 

For $47 cardinal a year, I would speech to Trump and Xi Jinping connected the telephone each day.

[Laughs] I would request astatine slightest 50, but that’s conscionable me. That’s his job: to spell bash authorities overmuch the aforesaid mode that Eric Schmidt astatine Google was successful complaint of governments aft Larry Page became CEO. There’s a full signifier here. 

Brad Smith astatine Microsoft, adjacent though helium wasn’t CEO, but yeah.

He’s the president of the company. Yeah, there’s a parallel here. Tell maine astir this determination of Tim Cook wanting to elevate his presumption to thing similar that, and of making John Ternus the look of the merchandise broadside of the institution successful this caller role.

So 2023 rolls astir and Tim Cook starts each enforcement squad meeting, each high-level meetings with radical astatine Apple astatine the enforcement levels, with, “We request to commencement taking succession seriously. We request to commencement reasoning astir who the adjacent radical are.” At that time, determination was a truly beardown realization that galore of the radical astatine the apical of Apple either had fractional a cardinal dollars successful the slope oregon were already billionaires, and that this epoch would commencement to property retired truly quickly. 

And truthful Tim Cook knew that helium wanted to instrumentality a measurement back. Jeff Williams, the fig 2 arsenic the COO, knew helium wanted to retire. The CFO, Luca Maestri, wanted to retire, too. The wide counsel, Kate Adams, besides wanted to retire. They were each astir the aforesaid age, springiness oregon instrumentality a fewer years. So they fundamentally came up with this program that would spell 1 by 1 implicit the adjacent fewer years.

It started with the CFO. Luca retires astatine the precise extremity of 2024, and he’s replaced by the caller CFO, Kevan Parekh. Then 2025 rolls around, and Jeff Williams, the COO, retires and is replaced by his deputy, Sabih Khan. Then successful 2026, they had the modulation for the wide counsel, and they got a large replacement for her from Meta, Jennifer Newstead. And past astatine the extremity of 2026, the large one: Tim Cook to John Ternus. So they played this retired very, precise slowly.

What Tim Cook has done, and I bash deliberation this is going to alteration successful the Ternus epoch arsenic we advancement here, is that helium came up with this strategy that I telephone “Hotel California.” You ne'er privation to leave. Tim Cook, he’s staying astir arsenic enforcement chairman. The wide counsel had her enactment astir an other six to 9 months to tally authorities affairs. Jeff Williams stayed astir 3 to 4 months aft stepping down arsenic COO to conscionable oversee the plan team, the ticker team, and the wellness teams arsenic portion of a transition.

For CFO Luca Maestri, the immense bulk of his responsibilities went to his successor, but helium kept 3 things. He kept oversight of accusation systems and technology. It’s fundamentally similar your IT department, firm accusation information — which is information for the enactment — and firm existent estate, truthful campuses, retail stores, facilities, and whatnot. It was benignant of a BS job, I’ll beryllium honorable with you.

It was much truthful keeping him connected the payroll and keeping him astir successful lawsuit things deed the fan, they had a fiscal issue, and they needed the big oregon the gramps successful the country to instrumentality the bull by the horns and hole things arsenic they transitioned to the caller guy. But present Luca, he’s inactive there, inactive getting paid, and he’s teaching a people erstwhile a week astatine Apple University. So he’s a prof determination now. I’m not definite however overmuch longer that’s going to tally for, but he’s inactive there.

All these old-school Apple guys are either retired oregon semi-retired oregon a notch betwixt semi-retirement and retirement. And past we person Phil Schiller. The aforesaid week that Ternus took implicit arsenic CEO, I reported that Schiller is leaving his remaining responsibilities of moving the App Store and moving Apple Events, and he’s astatine Apple present for the adjacent small portion moving connected peculiar projects. They’re not saying what that is, but he’s there, reporting to Ternus, and inactive connected the Apple enactment website. He’s astir if needed successful benignant of an advisory capacity, and we’ll spot however agelong that lasts.

But truly this is conscionable a gigantic end-to-end alteration of the defender astatine Apple. It’s the biggest enforcement overhaul I’ve surely seen successful my vocation reporting connected Apple. Don’t forget, erstwhile Tim Cook took implicit for Steve Jobs, determination was nary overhaul. Many of the guys nether Cook were the aforesaid guys nether Jobs. So a batch of them person been determination for a while. 

This is decidedly a caller era, a caller generation, and you’re going to spot much changes. The caput of marketing, the caput of retail, immoderate of the different people, they’re successful their mid-60s, almost. They’ve got hundreds of millions of dollars. They can’t bash this forever. They’re talking internally astir retirement. So you’re going to spot different question of changes successful the adjacent fewer years arsenic well, I believe.

You mentioned Phil Schiller, who I’ve known for ages astatine Apple due to the fact that I’m old. He’s transitioning retired of his relation moving the App Store. And you had a portion of reporting that suggests portion of it is due to the fact that John Ternus and Eddy Cue privation to extract adjacent much wealth from developers. They privation to support that Apple taxation high. They privation to find much ways to person services revenue, and Schiller wasn’t funny successful that. 

Schiller has famously ever thought that Apple was squeezing its developers excessively much. There’s reporting; determination are emails from immoderate of these lawsuits. What’s going connected there?

Yeah, it’s precise interesting. I mean, evidently 1 portion of it is that Schiller is 66. He wants to walk much clip with his family, but for real, erstwhile it comes to him, helium wants to bash much philanthropy. He’s been progressive successful each sorts of worldly successful that regard. But astatine the aforesaid time, this is simply a caller epoch for Apple. Eddy Cue has a steadfast grip implicit each Apple services now, truly for the archetypal clip successful a while.

John Ternus is precise adjacent with Eddy Cue, and they are looking astatine caller ways to marque much wealth connected the App Store, whether that’s further advertizing slots oregon further subscription opportunities. Obviously, there’s going to beryllium a reinvention of the App Store coming successful the adjacent fewer years to marque much usage of AI and to capable successful to Siri AI arsenic well.

Phil Schiller, according to my reporting, believes regulators are inactive blistery connected Apple’s trail. Developers are inactive unhappy with Apple. As they spell into this caller generation, helium wants to region a small spot from it, but helium inactive loves Apple much than anything, and he’s inactive portion of Apple for the foreseeable future.

To beryllium clear, determination was nary large blow-up oregon thing betwixt him, Eddy Cue, and Ternus oregon thing similar that. It just, with each these considerations, felt similar a earthy clip for him to measurement off. And he’s besides stepping distant from Apple events, right?

So it’s not conscionable dropping the App Store; it’s dropping his 2 remaining responsibilities, which was a lot, right? He was portion of the Hotel California crew, but helium had the astir work betwixt the App Store and Apple Events. Those are large things.

Yeah, and worthy noting, he’s not incorrect astir the regulators. There’s inactive an outstanding Department of Justice antitrust lawsuit against Apple regarding the App Store, CarPlay, and each this different worldly that was started nether the Biden medication and has not gone distant successful the Trump administration.

First of all, it’s astonishing that it hasn’t gone distant nether the Trump administration, fixed the confederation betwixt Donald Trump and Tim Cook. That has ever been shocking to me. I thought that was going to get blown up a twelvemonth ago.

And past the different happening is cipher knows immoderate of this much than Schiller due to the fact that he’s the 1 astatine the halfway of each meeting. He’s the 1 doing the depositions. He’s the 1 connected the stand. So if anyone has the pulse of these governments and the pulse of developers, it’s him.

The large Decoder trope is that the operation of a institution is connected straight to its culture. If you archer maine however your institution is astir organized, I tin archer you wherever astir 80 percent of your problems are and wherever the different 20 percent of the magic is. 

Every present and again, I get pushback connected this from a CEO who says, “No, no, it doesn’t matter. It’s each astir the people.” I consciousness similar Apple is both, right? The operation of Apple has been the aforesaid for a agelong time. Steve Jobs utilized to telephone it the world’s biggest startup. And past you conscionable had these radical who had been determination forever. They’re conscionable the aforesaid formed of characters nether Cook arsenic they were nether Jobs. 

You could astir apt shuffle them immoderate mode you wanted, but it was the aforesaid people, and so, of course, the civilization persisted. You’re describing a wholesale turnover astatine the top. And past it besides seems similar determination are immoderate structural changes happening underneath John Ternus, right? Jony Ive was the main plan serviceman of the company, which ever felt to maine similar portion of that Hotel California strategy. 

Oh, that was its own… That was similar Hotel Cupertino. I mean, that was its ain level.

But they were acrophobic of him leaving due to the fact that helium was truthful tied to the Jobs era, and past they managed to enactment him retired of the company. We tin speech astir OpenAI successful a bit. But Johny Srouji is the main hardware serviceman now. That’s not a rubric Apple has ever had before. That besides feels similar perchance a transitional title.

Can we speech astir that? Can we speech astir Srouji for a minute?

Yeah.

Right now, Srouji is the 2nd astir important idiosyncratic astatine Apple. He created Apple Silicon. And let’s conscionable look it: you screen the full industry, I screen the full industry; that’s their cardinal differentiator. That’s what allows them to bash antithetic stuff. That’s their competitory advantage. Letting this feline locomotion retired the doorway would’ve been a nightmare scenario, particularly close now.

Last fall, truly precocious summertime to aboriginal fall, helium goes to Tim Cook and tells him he’s done. This is close erstwhile readying for Ternus taking implicit is kicking into precocious gear. Tim says, “I request you to instrumentality astir arsenic portion of the transition. We can’t person you spell elsewhere. We can’t person you spell to Nvidia,” oregon wherever helium was reasoning astir going. Certainly not retiring. This guy’s not acceptable to retire, I don’t think. 

So Tim says, “Here’s what we’ll do. When Ternus becomes CEO, we’ll marque you main hardware officer. So you’re going to support your existing team, and past you’re going to get each the Ternus stuff, and past you’ll undoubtedly beryllium the 2nd astir important idiosyncratic astatine Apple.” Srouji agrees, takes a caller wage package, I’m sure, and present is successful that main hardware serviceman role.

I bash not judge that is simply a semipermanent thing. I deliberation that he’s already backmost to wanting to modulation to thing new, to modulation retired of Apple. He truly has not a batch near to do. He conquered the Mac; helium dumped Intel; helium dumped Qualcomm. What’s left? This is simply a feline who wants caller challenges and caller things, and he’s done it each astatine Apple, and there’s nary adjacent happening to spell after. They’ve truly done it all. 

So it’ll beryllium absorbing to spot however rapidly that happens, I deliberation successful a twelvemonth oregon two. And past erstwhile that happens, this recombination of the hardware engineering teams into 1 group, they’re going to person to interruption that up again due to the fact that there’s nary successor to Srouji who has that manufacture clout and that enactment capableness to beryllium a singular hardware figurehead astatine the company.

Yeah, if you person managed to acquire Intel’s disastrous modem business and hole it, what worlds near are determination to conquer?

Exactly.

It was the hardest happening you could person perchance wanted to do, and helium did it. Those modems are shipping successful the caller phones.

And nary complaints, right? If I were to spot a stake with you 2 years ago, however is this Apple modem happening going to go? I would’ve guessed it was going to beryllium a disaster.

Well, they did person to dilatory down the Qualcomm modems to marque their modems look competitive.

Fine, but-

There is definite worldly successful determination for sure.

Fine. But I’m talking astir articles, astir people’s calls dropping, not being capable to load webpages and whatnot. All things considered, beauteous seamless.

True. So this is the question that I’m truly getting at: we’re talking astir a batch of caller radical and, wrong of it, a instrumentality to signifier successful presumption of conscionable what that enactment leafage looks like. There’s nary main plan serviceman who’s a fable successful his ain right. You’re saying soon determination won’t beryllium a main hardware serviceman who’s a fable successful his ain right. 

Of the heads of plan listed connected that page, Alan Dye near and went to Meta. Now they’re conscionable vice presidents again. They’re not adjacent SVPs of design, but they study to John Ternus. We’re headed backmost towards a much functional Apple. They’ve gotten to immoderate benignant of divisional operation arsenic they effort to support each these almighty people. What bash you deliberation that’s going to bash to the company, oregon is that conscionable going to beryllium much of the same?

It’s truthful interesting. You look astatine the fig of things and the magnitude of worldly that each of these reports that John Ternus has; it’s a lot. I besides deliberation you person a occupation wherever determination are vice presidents, truthful a tier beneath the SVPs, who privation to grow, but you person these elder VPs who are going to beryllium determination forever, similar Eddy Cue. 

He’s been determination for astir 4 decades. And you’ve had radical nether Eddy Cue who’ve near for newer jobs and large things extracurricular of the institution due to the fact that they wanted to regenerate Eddy internally, but they cognize that he’s ne'er leaving. They knew that helium was going to instrumentality astir for a agelong time. So you’re losing bully radical astatine the VP level.

I think, eventually, you’re going to spot an further layer. I deliberation you’re going to spot this main hardware serviceman thought go immoderate caller happening they’re going to try. For example, could they marque Craig Federighi, who runs software, similar main bundle and AI serviceman oregon thing astatine 1 point, and past elevate immoderate of the radical nether him to that elder VP level, springiness them much responsibility, springiness them much wealth to support much radical around? 

So I deliberation that enactment operation is going to beryllium successful flux for a portion until they fig retired however to bash this. I mean, the old, aged Apple, they had VPs, they had elder VPs, they had enforcement VPs. You tin ideate they’re going to play with these things successful bid to support people, due to the fact that I deliberation 1 of their biggest problems, different than AI astatine this point, is retention of cardinal players.

I really would gully the transportation betwixt retention and AI. Not having that seat of younger radical with caller ideas oregon disruptive ideas, I think, prevented them from seeing AI for what it was.

That’s a truly bully point.

I deliberation astir what came to beryllium known arsenic the Cook Doctrine, wherever Tim Cook would often say, “We privation to ain and power each foundational exertion that goes into our phones.” This is truly conscionable a connection of Apple’s ain paranoia astir being chained to Intel for a agelong clip oregon immoderate it mightiness be. They couldn’t spot a mode to ain and power AI due to the fact that it’s conscionable a monolithic investment. They had conscionable blown a clump of wealth trying to marque a car, and they benignant of missed it. 

They don’t person a exemplary of their ain that competes astatine the frontier. And truthful Apple distilled Google’s model, and this feels similar a beauteous large leap distant from the Cook doctrine. Do you deliberation they’re going to person to vie successful AI by making their ain investments connected the frontier, oregon bash you deliberation they’re blessed wherever they are?

It’s 1 of the craziest things that I’ve ever heard — Craig and these different executives successful these interviews implicit the past twelvemonth saying that, “We ne'er owned search. We don’t request to ain AI.” First of all, 2 wholly antithetic things. Second of all, to your point, they person spent truthful galore tens of billions, hundreds of billions, talking their mouths disconnected astir owning thing arsenic elemental arsenic a cellular modem. When I accidental simple, I mean thing arsenic commoditized arsenic a cellular modem, spending billions to bargain and past effort to hole the Intel modem business. 

So you’re consenting to bash that, to ain thing similar a modem, but you’re not consenting to ain AI. It’s ridiculous. And they cognize that; that’s wherefore they tried to ain their AI and physique it from the crushed up. They ran into a wall, and they had nary prime but to spouse with Google connected fixing up their models.

The thought internally has ever been “we are going to enactment with Google arsenic a stopgap solution until we’re capable to bash our ain models from the crushed up.” Let’s enactment that aside. At the aforesaid time, I’ve seen perfectly zero grounds that they’re really moving connected that program A again. I’ve seen nary grounds that they’re hard astatine enactment connected gathering caller Apple-made models from the crushed up. 

I’ve seen nary grounds that they’re moving astir to marque large AI acquisitions. I’ve seen nary grounds that they privation to commencement throwing immense wage packages astatine AI researchers for Meta, Google, Anthropic, oregon OpenAI. So close present it feels similar we are astatine a standstill. It feels similar they privation to spot however this Google woody and however moving with 3rd parties goes for the adjacent respective months, and past they’ll marque a determination if they privation to spell backmost to benignant of gathering and competing with the different guys.

I deliberation they privation to spot however things play out. I deliberation they privation to spot the Anthropic and OpenAI IPOs. I deliberation now, with each the quality astir AI safety, they privation to spot however this each plays out, and possibly they’ll marque a determination successful six months astir wherever they privation to go. But arsenic of close now, I’ve seen nary grounds that the modulation of moving backmost to in-house worldly is happening.

To beryllium fair, it’s an vantage that there’s nary accidental that Siri volition termination america all. It simply is not susceptible capable to bash it.

Again, Nilay, they fell backwards into that. It was not a strategy. Apple’s existent AI merchandise was not the effect of bully work, right? It was the eventual failing upwards.

Let maine inquire you astir that, due to the fact that close adjacent to that, I mentioned Jony Ive; he’s evidently moving with Sam Altman. They’re going to build immoderate acceptable of products astatine OpenAI. A batch of Apple designers person gone implicit to OpenAI.

There’s a very contentious lawsuit betwixt the 2 companies. Apple accuses OpenAI of stealing interior accusation and merchandise plans. OpenAI says, “This is conscionable the mean people of business. We’re conscionable having conversations and occupation interviews.” We’ll spot however that plays out.

The menace is that Ive volition plan the adjacent people of products utilizing earthy connection input arsenic the next-generation idiosyncratic interface, the aforesaid mode that the multi-touch surface was the next-generation idiosyncratic interface connected the iPhone, and that volition disrupt each the aged paradigms.

I cognize that’s what he’s reasoning due to the fact that erstwhile helium made his precise romanticist motorboat video with Sam Altman, helium described the telephone and the laptop arsenic bequest devices. I thought that was a precise almighty happening for him to say, fixed that helium designed the paradigmatic examples of those things.

And Apple makes the champion bequest devices, and they don’t privation that to beryllium their last chapter. They privation to marque the champion new-generation AI devices. And present we are, them inactive trying to proceed to marque the champion bequest devices, but they truly request both.

Well, I spot it 2 ways. One, Apple has to get up of the curve somehow. If they don’t person the frontier AI exemplary that tin virtually perceive to thing you accidental and bash thing you want, past what are they going to marque this instrumentality retired of? 

And past connected the different side, you person OpenAI, and if its instrumentality doesn’t person an Instagram app, everyone volition inactive transportation their iPhone with them. Then they volition conscionable usage their iPhone due to the fact that it has a large surface and perchance unfolds into an adjacent bigger screen. So they’re benignant of pointed astatine each other, each missing the happening the different 1 has. How bash you deliberation that gets resolved?

Okay. I deliberation Apple is terrified of immoderate OpenAI is building, and we tin speech astir that. It’s a hockey puck-sized AI machine benignant of instrumentality that you speech to without a show oregon whatnot. I deliberation Apple’s terrified. In fact, the latest improvement successful their suit is that Apple wants the tribunal to amusement them and springiness them entree to the upcoming instrumentality truthful they tin analyse if it has immoderate of their materials successful it. So bully luck to them connected that one.

At the aforesaid time, I bash deliberation Apple has the quality to fast-follow thing OpenAI does. If OpenAI puts retired immoderate singular merchandise and it begins to deed steam, Apple’s conscionable going to transcript this happening and travel beauteous fast. Unlike the astute glasses, wherever they’re coming 5 years, 7 years aft everyone else, I deliberation if this donut oregon hockey puck happening is successful, Apple volition travel them immediately.

I deliberation the models are getting commoditized to a constituent wherever they could fast-follow and person a precise effectual product. If Apple goes to Anthropic and says, “We privation to transcript this OpenAI device,” and evidently they’re not going to springiness america their concealed condiment and models, “will you spouse with america connected this?” Yes. If they travel to Google, “We request adjacent amended models. Could you spouse connected this?” Yes. Google has nary morganatic hardware concern that’s going to beryllium destroyed implicit partnering with Apple connected hardware. Anthropic has nary hardware business. Apple tin get this done.

So yes, they’re afraid, connected 1 hand. On the different hand, I truly don’t deliberation they request to beryllium that disquieted due to the fact that if it’s a success, they tin conscionable transcript it, which is, I guess, what they’re accusing OpenAI of doing from the opening anyway.

In presumption of the lawsuit, it is precise wide that OpenAI employees person done immoderate shady things. I’m amazed that the iPhone engineer, oregon erstwhile iPhone engineer, is astatine the halfway of the lawsuit; this is the 1 they’ve accused of taking worldly with him and sharing it with radical and whatnot. I’m shocked that OpenAI has not chopped bait connected him and moved forward. I deliberation their fearfulness is that if they chopped bait connected this guy, employees are going to revolt. 

How could we spot moving astatine a institution similar this if you are going to get sued by Apple, adjacent a institution that big, and you’re conscionable going to chopped bait connected someone, right? So we’ll spot what happens. We’ll spot what happens. They’ve done shady things, but a batch of the stuff, arsenic you said, is communal concern practice, worldly that Apple astir apt adjacent does too.

It’s precise notable to maine that nary of the filings successful the lawsuit truthful acold person immoderate notation of Jony Ive. Neither institution wants to constituent retired that Steve Jobs’ fig 2 is astatine the halfway of each this due to the fact that he’s starring the plan of this product.

I deliberation it’s by design. I deliberation it’s notable. And I adjacent deliberation the root communicative of this suit is Jony Ive himself. I deliberation Apple’s constituent of presumption is that Jony Ive was connected Apple’s payroll for fractional a decennary oregon much aft the Apple Watch. During that time, fundamentally destroyed the Apple plan squad from wrong and took everyone with him to physique a rival to the products that helium developed astatine Apple. That is Apple’s viewpoint. 

I deliberation there’s a batch of choler towards Ive astatine the precise halfway of this, peculiarly from Tim Cook and immoderate of those different players there. I deliberation Jony Ive’s position is that each the Apple products contiguous are nonstop siblings of everything Jony Ive developed there. Even the iPhone Duo, you tin spot Jony Ive’s enactment successful there. It’s each portion and parcel with Jony Ive. 

I deliberation that helium believes that helium created the merchandise portfolio that’s the ground of this $3 to 4 trillion company. And helium was bushed aft carrying that institution post-Steve Jobs and precise bittersweet astir Steve Jobs’ death, and wanted to determination on. He and Tim Cook came to an statement that helium lone needed to enactment astatine Apple for a fewer days a week. And truthful what? If helium wants to yet permission Apple and physique thing caller and person radical travel him, that’s up to them.

So I deliberation it’s 2 precise antithetic sides of the aforesaid story, and you tin broadside with whoever you privation to broadside with. But I deliberation it’s truly unfortunate that things did not enactment retired for Apple and for Jony Ive unneurotic successful this instance. I deliberation helium saw AI arsenic the caller halfway exertion that helium tin make thing truly chill around, conscionable similar the iPhone was developed astir the chill technologies backmost past of the App Store, Multi-Touch, and what person you.

What’s truly absorbing astir that, and this is simply a full antithetic podcast, is that each of Ive’s champion products are designed astir limitations. The iMac was designed astir the regulation of the CRT display. AI doesn’t person immoderate limitations due to the fact that it ever conscionable tells you it tin bash everything. I’m conscionable dying to cognize what helium identifies arsenic the regulation that makes the magic of the adjacent Ive product. As I said, that’s a full antithetic podcast, but it’s conscionable connected my caput arsenic I deliberation astir what helium mightiness bash to marque this much than conscionable a hockey puck that’s listening each the time.

I’m psyched to play with it and to spot it. And I deliberation this screenless thought is some a blessing and a curse. I deliberation that we’re going to truly spot however effectual AI is erstwhile we’re utilizing it without a surface and having it successful the background. 

But astatine the aforesaid time, determination are things astir displays that are not replaceable with screenless devices. Gaming, monolithic market. Video conferencing, monolithic usage case. Watching video, different monolithic marketplace usage case. I conscionable don’t cognize however OpenAI takes implicit the satellite with a instrumentality that can’t video chat, can’t bash gaming, and can’t bash video. And we’ve seen historically that being an iPhone companion, that conscionable doesn’t chopped it.

Actually, this brings maine to you mentioning the AirPods with a camera. AirPods are a occurrence due to the fact that they person a immense connect complaint to iPhones. People bargain iPhones; they bargain AirPods. People bargain iPhones; they bargain a acceptable of AirPods. There you go. You got a immense business.

And past you suffer them each six months, oregon you interruption them, and you person to bargain caller ones. So it’s crazy.

You mentioned that adding a camera to AirPods mightiness crook them into a level unto themselves. That would evidently vie with immoderate of these screenless devices oregon these AI autochthonal devices. How would that work?

Okay. These AirPods fundamentally person the ocular quality diagnostic that you person connected your iPhone. You could constituent astatine something. You tin instrumentality enactment connected it. You tin get much information. It’s built into the AirPods. It’s nary different. So 1 usage lawsuit is that I’m connected my computer, and I person my phone, and I privation to adhd thing to my calendar. I conscionable constituent my iPhone camera astatine my email, and I say, “Add this to my calendar,” and it adds it to my calendar and parses each the links. The AirPods could bash that for you now. 

You tin archer your AirPods, “When I get to the pasta aisle astatine Whole Foods, halt me, ping maine erstwhile you spot the herb condiment I’m looking for,” and it’ll bash that. When you’re walking astir a city, and you inquire it to get directions to the nearest Walgreens, alternatively of telling you, “Turn close successful 40 feet,” it’ll say, “Turn close by the achromatic sedan parked astatine the corner.” So it uses ocular accusation to supply you with discourse to assistance you passim your day.

It’s a crippled changer, I think, and I deliberation it’s going to beryllium a truly sought-after product. And I deliberation that the changes we saw with the AirPods 5 astatine this Apple event, wherever you’re present getting truly coagulated ANC, adjacent though it’s not interior ear, with immoderate Pro features similar the measurement swipe astatine astir 150 bucks, that’s a truly bully merchandise astatine a truly bully price. I deliberation that’s mounting the signifier for needing to marque the AirPods Pro that overmuch better. And that’s wherever the cameras travel successful arsenic that halfway differentiator.

This brings maine to the past happening I privation to speech to you about, which is Apple and privacy. The things you’re describing with AirPods are subject fabrication ideas that person been astir forever. I tried Microsoft HoloLens 10 years ago, and they were doing augmented world demos that are precise overmuch the things you’re describing. They had maine alteration spark plugs successful an ATV. I’ll ne'er hide doing this with their large silly glasses connected my face.

The occupation has been one: it’s precise hard to shrink that exertion and person the due artillery life. And past the different occupation is, well, you’ve got a camera pointed astatine everything astir you each the time, and radical don’t similar that.

I’m ever joking that I deliberation the slayer app for Meta’s glasses is facial recognition. If you conscionable gave maine a brace of glasses that would archer maine everyone’s names and faces astatine events, I would beryllium the azygous top person successful satellite history. 

The occupation with that is that it requires a worldwide surveillance database of everyone taking each other’s pictures each time long. And that is astir apt not an due trade-off for maine to beryllium the top person successful the world. But I’m conscionable letting you know, I deliberation that merchandise would beryllium chill for my idiosyncratic benefit. The societal outgo would beryllium excessively high.

This is Apple’s marque — privateness — and they’re up against radical calling the Meta glasses pervert glasses. They’re successful a satellite wherever radical hatred Flock cameras and each the surveillance that’s happening online. They’re doing watchOS 27 with an always-on listening diagnostic that conscionable does transcripts. It doesn’t grounds oregon store immoderate audio, but–

Still a surveillance device. I’ll beryllium honorable with you. I can’t judge they did it.

I can’t judge they did it.

I can’t judge they did it.

Right? It’s conscionable listening, and you tin double-click it, and it’ll amusement you a transcript of the past 15 seconds of what idiosyncratic said to you without their permission.

First of all, work the room.

It doesn’t adjacent airy up.

No, I know. No, that’s not true. It does airy up. But work the room.

I was told it doesn’t airy up.

Okay. First of all, we tin get into this, but I was not astatine the Apple lawsuit for evident reasons. I haven’t been astatine 1 since 2019.

Well, you already cognize what’s going to happen.

Well, I didn’t person the briefings.

Yeah.

But according to the lit connected their website, erstwhile you’re doing that feature, it lights up with a microphone icon erstwhile you bash the unrecorded rewind. Maybe it doesn’t airy up for the Siri Recap — I don’t deliberation it does for the each time listening — but the past 15 seconds things, it supposedly shows a microphone. But Nilay, is this podcast a video?

Yeah.

Okay. I’m wearing an Apple Watch. Can you spot thing connected my screen?

Right, it’s brainsick to me.

So I can’t judge they did that because, really, you’re going to instrumentality a backlash similar this and past bash it again with a ocular quality six, 9 months from now?

And past you’re going to bash it with a brace of astute glasses, and you’re going to locomotion into each of the different things.

Yeah.

It feels similar Apple knows that there’s a adjacent procreation of idiosyncratic interfaces coming that is AI-powered that requires an magnitude of ambient capture, whether that’s conscionable listening truthful you tin speech to it oregon whether it’s ocular truthful you tin spot the satellite astir you. And they haven’t solved the societal privateness aspect.

Nope.

There are achromatic papers astir however Apple mightiness person solved the method database privateness aspect, right?

Yep.

They’ve got Private Cloud Compute, and they’re going to encrypt the data. They’re not going to store this and that. And I don’t deliberation immoderate of that’s going to flooded the societal privateness aspect.

They didn’t bash a bully occupation connected articulating the societal facet of it astatine all. They could’ve shown much demos. They could’ve discussed it a spot deeper. I cognize they lone person precise constricted clip successful the keynote, but I don’t deliberation they spent capable clip breaking things down here. I rather frankly deliberation they did not bash a bully occupation rolling this diagnostic out.

I inquire myself, would I beryllium comfy utilizing this feature? Yeah. But past if I archer everyone astir maine successful the past week, “Hey, I’ve been signaling you the full time,” they’re going to freak out, and they’re not going to spot Apple. So it’s a truly absorbing one. I’m beauteous shocked they did it.

What are the nett caller Apple Watch buyers due to the fact that of this feature? What is the bigger challenge, doing this diagnostic oregon not doing this feature? And I deliberation that doing this diagnostic is simply a bigger drawback than not doing the feature. Here, determination is nary outgo of not doing something.

Well, determination is simply a outgo if you deliberation there’s astir to beryllium a question of AI devices that are doing always-on transcripts and gathering recordings, and OpenAI is going to bash something. I mean, we person seen a question of startups that bash this. 

But we’re not determination yet, right?

Right.

This could’ve waited six months.

So you tin conscionable foreclose it. This is similar Microsoft stuff. You’re like, “Here’s a preview of a feature. Don’t adjacent see that stuff. Eventually this volition get good,” and you’ve conscionable foreclosed the competitor.

Well, the different happening is they had thing other for the watch, truthful they had to conscionable bash something, right? This is the weakest Apple Watch update we’ve seen successful a agelong time, and they’re mislaid arsenic to what to bash next. Now they’re recalibrating it. They’re going to person a large ticker revamp astatine the extremity of adjacent twelvemonth and truthful forth, but they person to bash something. 

If it were me, I would person ripped disconnected the bandaid astatine the aforesaid clip with each the audio positive ocular quality worldly adjacent year. Do it each unneurotic and person a truly coherent privateness story. 

But bash you deliberation that worldly is compatible with Apple’s estimation for privacy? This is the existent question I’m getting at: they mightiness not person told the close communicative astir the Apple Watch. 

Apple is going to person to archer the close communicative astir AirPods with cameras successful them successful a satellite wherever radical are shooting spray foam astatine Flock cameras due to the fact that they don’t privation them successful their communities. There’s a transportation betwixt these 2 ideas, and it doesn’t look similar Apple knows however to archer that story.

Well, intelligibly not, due to the fact that they haven’t done it. But here’s the communicative connected the AirPods. They can’t grounds existent video. They can’t instrumentality existent pictures. They person an highly debased framework rate. I’m talking astir a fewer frames per second. 

The existent information that gets input into them, it’s like… Have you ever utilized a Roomba, and erstwhile you look astatine the app, what does the Roomba see? It’s similar wireframes of the environment. It would not beryllium capable to archer you and maine apart. It’s conscionable seeing 2 people.

Then however tin it bash the brands of herb condiment successful the aisle?

Well, successful presumption of non-people, it’d beryllium capable to bash that, and it could work text. So it’d beryllium beauteous heavy reliant connected speechmaking substance and seeing colour and whatnot. But being capable to differentiate betwixt 2 radical would beryllium precise difficult. It’s astir similar a fake reproduction of what’s astir you. I don’t person a bully mentation for it, but I’m definite if they wanted to, they’ll springiness a bully one.

I’m not definite they’re going to interruption it down. They mightiness conscionable say, “Just spot us. We’re Apple. It’s not taking pictures. It’s not taking video. It doesn’t cognize what it’s seeing to immoderate extent.” So we’ll spot however they play it. But I would’ve done each this worldly together, ripped disconnected the bandaid and spent a batch of clip focused connected it. There was nary request to bash this audio quality diagnostic astatine the extremity of ’26 erstwhile you could person done it astatine the extremity of ’27.

Unless you’re trying to dilatory boil the frog, right? You’re going to get radical huffy astir this, and past you’re going to bash the adjacent 1 the adjacent time. 

Right. 

It conscionable seems similar this adjacent procreation of devices involves immoderate benignant of ambient listening that we are not acceptable for arsenic a society. People are truly huffy astir Meta glasses. What are you going to bash astir it?

They soiled the h2o for Apple and a batch of different companies. Meta being the archetypal mover connected this created an industry-wide problem. And I deliberation adjacent though Apple has specified a beardown privateness stance, determination are radical who don’t judge them. There are radical who don’t attraction what they person to say. There are radical who are going to beryllium aggravated astir the Apple glasses and whatnot.

I deliberation Apple, to immoderate extent, is connected specified a precocious equine with its privateness connection that it came distant amazed that determination would beryllium immoderate backlash to Apple doing this. They think, I believe, that radical are overblowing it erstwhile it comes to Apple and everyone should conscionable beryllium focused connected Meta. And conscionable due to the fact that Meta has done a mediocre occupation protecting people’s privateness doesn’t mean we’re going to. So we’ll spot what happens.

One thing: erstwhile I speech to the folks there, they ne'er marque the transportation betwixt Apple and Meta successful the consciousness that Meta’s apps tally connected Apple’s phones. People are huffy astir Meta, and they inactive deliberation the phones, Apple’s phones, are listening to them, and they can’t rather marque that transportation due to the fact that it undoes a batch of their ain messaging. If you judge your iPhone is listening to you, that’s not conscionable Meta’s problem. It is besides Apple’s problem.

They benignant of person to actively disregard that narration due to the fact that different everything other falls apart. And I deliberation that’s wherefore there’s this unsighted spot. If people’s watches commencement generating transcripts, it’s precisely the aforesaid narration arsenic “my iPhone is listening to me, and that’s wherefore I saw an advertisement for a abrogation that I lone talked to my person about.”

I’m funny what they’re going to do. I person a feeling they’re conscionable going to bulldoze their mode done it. They’re going to conscionable effort to archer a bully story. They’re going to bash a ton of PR briefings astir it. They’re going to bash a ton of achromatic papers astir it, and get arsenic nerdy and in-depth arsenic they tin connected this stuff.

You cognize what they’re going to do? They’re going to propulsion retired a batch of comparisons. I adjacent heard Ternus bash this successful 1 of the interviews, successful Apple’s connection connected immoderate of these features. I could wholly ideate them saying, “Why is it immoderate antithetic signaling from astute glasses if you could conscionable clasp your telephone up and grounds people?” With the audio quality feature, 1 happening I didn’t adjacent deliberation of is the Apple Watch-

It’s precise comic you conscionable mentioned that due to the fact that that is exactly what Mark Zuckerberg conscionable said to our person Alex Heath.

Oh, that’s funny.

“How is it antithetic from a phone?” This is the industry’s approach. I deliberation the reply is that radical are like, “Yeah, I tin spot you doing that, and I consciousness precise comfy telling you to stop.” There’s thing antithetic astir that.

I didn’t adjacent recognize this. Someone pointed this retired to maine the different day. It’s similar your Apple Watch has had the Voice Memos app for, I don’t know, 8 years astatine this point. Who stopped anyone from signaling their full time with the Voice Memos app connected the Apple Watch anyway? This is conscionable a much privacy-centric mentation of that. So Apple’s solving a occupation here. They’re not creating one. So it conscionable depends connected however you look astatine these things. I deliberation they’ll bulldoze their mode done it. It’s going to beryllium a problem, but I deliberation they’ll beryllium fine.

All right. Last 2 earlier I fto you get retired of here. We’ve talked astir the iPhone Duo a lot. We’ve mentioned it a lot. It’s the happening that conscionable came out. We haven’t talked astir it. What bash you deliberation of it?

I deliberation it’s incredible. I think, and this is simply a bold take, that foldables volition go the caller mean wrong a decade. If you look astatine the marketplace stock of smartphones astatine the extremity of 2006, smartphones had similar 6 percent of the market. Now they person 85 percent of the market. It went implicit 50 percent of the marketplace aft 5 to six years. 

The iPhone itself was not the root of that, but the iPhone got everyone into the smartphone game. I deliberation the iPhone Duo is going to bash the aforesaid for the telephone market. I deliberation it’s going to go the caller normal.

Even though Apple is simply a precocious mover to foldables?

Yeah. I deliberation the Apple marque is that strong, really. I truly do. I deliberation the acceptable and finish, the bundle integration, is going to get radical truly excited astir this category. I deliberation that the Apple Upgrade program, the leasing program, volition yet grow internationally. I deliberation that’s going to get radical successful it.

I deliberation that astatine immoderate constituent they’re going to halt advertizing sticker prices and absorption connected the monthly prices, and they’re going to get radical locked into this thing. They’re going to person a household of iPhone Duos implicit time. You’ll spot each telephone shaper conscionable transitioning, transitioning to foldables. Samsung: fractional the enactment is already foldables. Very soon the candy barroom benignant is going to go legacy.

That’s a large prediction. Although I volition accidental their iPhone handoff feature, wherever you tin determination a fig betwixt phones, seems to constituent to a aboriginal wherever I, for example, person the folding telephone for enactment and past a overmuch smaller, lighter telephone for the weekends with the family. You tin spot that imaginativeness taking signifier lone due to the fact that it’s present casual to larboard a fig betwixt devices, conscionable whenever you want, which I deliberation is incredible. 

Last question. We’ve talked a batch astir Apple, its culture, and its acceptable of products. What bash you deliberation its biggest challenges are successful the caller epoch nether John Ternus, and what bash you deliberation its biggest opportunities are?

I would accidental that I deliberation the biggest situation and the biggest accidental are the aforesaid thing. Ternus’ Apple for the adjacent 3 to 5 years is inactive Tim Cook’s Apple, right? That’s conscionable the reality. He’s inactive going to beryllium determination successful the background. He’s inactive going to loom large, and the merchandise pipeline is inactive going to beryllium coming retired of an epoch that started nether Tim Cook.

But successful 5 years from now, they are going to request to commencement reasoning of what really replaces the iPhone arsenic the adjacent thing. We went from the Mac to iCloud to AI arsenic the center. What is Apple’s caller happening aft the phone? What is Apple’s caller happening aft the existent procreation of AI? And Ternus’ tenure arsenic CEO, I think, volition spell down arsenic a occurrence if he’s capable to find that adjacent caller centerpiece. He’s got a fewer years earlier helium needs to commencement cooking connected that, but I’m talking astir thing that tin beryllium successful improvement for 5 to 10 years.

Tim Cook ne'er had the accidental to person his caller centerpiece of the company. He ne'er had the accidental to enactment his stamp connected products astatine the institution for 2 reasons. Both things that helium tried to bash arsenic his centerpiece failed spectacularly. Obviously the Vision Pro, but the car — the car, that was Apple’s multi-trillion-dollar marketplace headdress opportunity, and they conscionable blew it. Ternus volition request to successfully deed that.

I’d really enactment a 3rd happening connected that list. It was the precise opening of the Cook era, with Jobs virtually connected his deathbed, and helium said he’d figured retired TV. 

Oh, yes.

He had to walk nevertheless agelong pretending helium knew what that meant due to the fact that I don’t deliberation it had been solved. And truthful determination was this archetypal question of “Apple’s going to redefine TV” due to the fact that the past leafage of the Isaacson biography had a Jobs punctuation connected it.

They haven’t adjacent done a caller Apple TV container successful 4 years.

That’s a agelong time. It’s comic due to the fact that you don’t request one. It ne'er occurs to maine that I request to upgrade this thing, but possibly there’s going to beryllium immoderate AI feature.

Well, Siri AI. They’ve been waiting for the Siri AI update. This could beryllium a full different podcast, but Siri AI has been the gross to each of these caller merchandise categories. The AirPods were expected to beryllium retired already, the Apple TV, the HomePod, the astute location hub… each these devices were expected to travel out. Apple couldn’t bash immoderate of them until Siri AI. Now Siri AI is here, truthful the floodgates are open.

All right. Well, Mark, we’re going to person to person you backmost connected the amusement to speech astir those floodgates and each these caller products precise soon. I can’t judge you haven’t been connected until now. Thank you truthful overmuch for being connected Decoder.

Yeah. And evidently I’d emotion to person you connected my caller podcast, Power On Podcast, launching precise shortly. So acknowledgment successful advance.

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